Front suspension, heim joints, ball joints, etc,

[Kinarfi]

I am taking on a nasty problem I have, the noisy clunking front end, the play in the steering, the looseness of the front end in general and more dampening on the shock rebound. I am going to try Lennys suggestion of reshaping the brass in the heim joints via compression, the ball joints are so loose that they fall out when the snap ring is removed and I can also feel play in them, My plan is to weld some heavier steel onto the end A arm and then cut through the two of them and then cinch it down on the ball joint like my doctored parts drawing. I could use 2 nuts and drill out one of them so I can thread into the second one or drill through a block of steel and use bolt & nut. If anyone has some input about making the ball joint socket into a clamp type socket, I would like to hear your comments.
I also plan to change the bearings and I already the shims to stiffen up the rebound and the bearings.

photo removed, needed the space elsewhere, Kinarfi

[Guest Lenny]

If you do a good job on it, I think it will work real well. Do make your extended part a little wider then the OD of the hole housing, maybe 1/8" each side. Cut a quarter circle in the ends of your two pieces so they fit around the sides of the hole part of the a-frame and go maybe 1/4" past midway of the hole. You want to make it so the flex, when tightening, takes place at the sides of the far end of the hole part. This way you will get a good even clamping action. When reshaping the brass of the heims joints, I would do it a bit different then what I did. Mine worked fine but the deformation mostly took place at the sides of the brass but not so much in the center. They worked pretty good but loosened sooner then they would have if had gotten them to squeez in all the way to the center of the brass. If you can, find someone with a good hydraulic press, say 50 ton and press them with that. Another approach would be to heat them up to about 800 degrees F before squeezing them yourself. Be sure to hammer real hard on the back side of the jaw of your vise after squeezing them as tight as you can. The vise itself won't develope enough pressure in its own. Or, you could send them to me and I'll do them for you. I made a 30 ton hydraulic press to swedge my cv joints tighter onto the differential output shafts. I would heat them before pressing and also hammer the top of the press after pressing to seat them to their new form. They would probably start out a little tight but that won't be a problem and would run in quickly.

Lenny

[charlie]

I'm kinda confused add you guys talking about basically shrinking the joint do the ball fits tighter???? What about just getting new ones or seeing if there is an aftermarket company that would work like ballistic fabrication

[Guest Lenny]

This is just a quick fix that isn't too bad and if done correctly can last pretty good. When mine got loose a second time, I did replace them with bigger and better ones.

Lenny

[nocturnalsixer]

What kinarfi is thinking is like those "pinch bolt" set up on old Ford cars like late 80's tempo a bolt pinches the steel by compression and holds the ball joint in. It works very good

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[Kinarfi]

pulled all the heim joints with the plan to have Lenny do the compression thing on them, but as I was cleaning them, I found a piece of wire hanging out of one of them and then on the next one, I had a patch of mesh come out, SCRAP that plan. Where have others found heim joints.
Thanks!

photo removed, needed the space elsewhere, Kinarfi

[Kinarfi]

FYI, Ball Joint Rod Ends AKA Heim Joints

16 x2.0mm thread, 16mm ID, 21 mm thick,

I got mine at McMaster-Carr 4483T36

PTFE/Kevlar Insert, M16 x 2.0 x 40.mm shank, 21,966 lb static radial load capacity, 23°, $25.60 ea. or $204.80 for 8 + shipping---thats $200 more than having Lenny do the compressing thing, Charlie , a lot cheaper, but it wouldn't have worked for as long as these will.

[charlie]

Kinarfi so these would be all for the jounts at the end of our A-arms that mount to frame correct??????? thanx for the tip

[charlie]

kinarfi what about using one of those joints on the end of our steering rack and getting rid of the tierod end?????????????????????

[Guest Lenny]

I would first determine the amount of movement the joint needs and if the heim joint will provide it. You would have to disconnect one end of each front shock and then move the suspension from one extreme to the other while doing the same with the steering. This way you could find the highest flex position.

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

The specs on this particular joint is that it can handle a 23° movement, so if the tie rod is 18"(an aprox guess) you could only have 18" time (the tangent of 23°) 0.42447481620960474202353206294252=7.6405466917728853564235771329654" of wheel travel if the bolt through the ball is vertical, if the shank is vertical, the max turn angle from full left to full right would be 23°

I Don't think they would work, IMHO.

[bruhaw]

Posted this during this past summer. Nice thing about these heims joints is that you can lubricate them as they come with a zert fitting. I grease them pretty much after every outing and no squeaks anymore. They work well and I am happy with them. Pricing is very good as well.

Posted 31 July 2012 - 08:09 PM

http://www.vxb.com/p...earings/CTGY/HR

I replaced all of my heims joints including the tie rod ones which are smaller and use a needle style zert fitting. All of the other heims joints have the regular standard zert fitting. Mine were squeaking all the time and once I replaced them all - no more squeaking and I can grease after every outing if need be. I tried the rubber boot covers but they kept binding up and tearing so I don't and can't use them. Lenny was able to get them to work on his and I got the idea from him at the jamboree but no luck on mine. Either way they do get dirtier now but I can wipe off and just grease again. See link above. The ones we use are all right hand thread and16mm for all the larger ones and 12mm for the tie rods. POS16 and POS12 are the part numbers. Not too expensive either and well worth getting rid of that damn squeaking!

[charlie]

Thanx for the tips guys

[nocturnalsixer]

Thanks for the info bruhaw. That's so helpful!

I looked up pos12 there's left and right thread in a set kit.

Bruhaw...

This is the one you used for tierod correct?

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit12360

And for on end of arms this one correct?

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit12960

I'm asking because I wanted to make sure that we all are thinking and looking at same thing?

Anyways thanks Bruhaw for that info...

Now we need to figure out something to do about our cr@ppy ball joints

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[Kinarfi]

Hey Lenny, can you explain these ratings for Ball Joint Rod Ends,

the McMaster-Carr joint I bought say "Static Radial Load Cap., lbs. -- 21,966"

The VBX POS16 Bearing says "Basic Dynamic Load Rating: 2,140 KGF & Basic Static Load Rating: 2,590 KGF" ( 4717 lb & 5709 lb)

Does this mean that the McMaster-Carr Heim joint will handle aprox 4 times what the VBX will handle? If so, maybe thats why McMaster cost's a little more than twice the VBX.

Thanks

[Guest Lenny]

Static load is The maximum force only for when there is no movement in the joint. Dynamic load is the maximun force it will take when the joint is moving. My joints are bigger and have a static rating of 27,000 pounds. This is more then you need. I just like to overbuild. Oh, and yes, that means the McMaster joint is 4 times stronger in static force capacity. Just remember that the Joyner joints are loose to begin with so I guess that means they have a negative force rating.

Lenny

[nocturnalsixer]

I wonder why Joyner even manufactured very sloppy poorly built joints instead of using off the shelf pieces to be cheaper still with no investment for tooling and dies.

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[Guest Lenny]

China has a reputation to live up to. They don't want to spoil it by thinking.

Lenny

[Guest Lenny]

Here is where I purchased my heims joints at.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-8-Inch-RH-Chromoly-Male-Heim-Joint-Rod-End-By-American-Star-/360542743267?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item53f205aae3&vxp=mtr

These are really nice joints and they are the lowest price I could find. However, I don't know if they have metric sizes. I assume they can get them. For me, I used 3/4". The add shows 5/8" which is real close to the metric 16-2 thread which is stock on the Trooper. The 3/4" requires modification which isn't easy for most to do. They might be worth the call for same quality in metric.

Here is a source for joints that look about like the quality that comes stock. These would be a direct replacement. The 16mm has a static load rating of 12,580 pounds. They would work for probably as long as the stock ones. The price is right for any one wanting to spend as little as possible. They are about 7 bucks a peice with the $35 shipping. I wouldn't use them myself.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-16mm-Male-Right-Hand-Metric-Threaded-Rod-End-Joint-Bearing-/271037337260?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1b158eac

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

My heim joint problem is solved, Now on to the ball joint problem, any one have any good sources or leads as where to get them?

[Guest Lenny]

I'm using larger ball joints which I modified to work. Not a real easy task but a solid solution. So, when I started looking for a joint to work with I figured to go the the joint manufactures and tell them what basic dimensions I was looking for. Their response was "Sorry, we don't give out that information. All joints are specifically engineered for a specific vehicle and we don't want them to be used in any other applications for safty reasons." That approach wasn't going to work. I then went to all the local auto part stores with my caliper and asked if I could go thru their joint boxes looking for something that I could make work. Suprisingly, most of them said fine. I have found retail outlets around here to be very personable unlike most places where they tell you to get lost. I managed to come up with something I could work with. This may be the only way you might find a joint that would slip in. I also scoured the internet with no luck.

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

Like you, I'm am having no luck with the internet, Unlike you, one of the local O'reilly's employees let me go look at brake cylinders when I needed to, but he was probably in trouble because the manager escorted me out of the back soon after. Oh welllll, I'll figure something out,

Kinarfi

[charlie]

Did u order all those joints that u posted on this topic kinarfi from Mcallister I think it was???

[Kinarfi]

Yes, I bought 8 heim joints from McMaster car and I have them screwed into the A arms and right side is mounted. Smooth motion and no play.

[charlie]

Awsome guess ill be ordering them as well merry Christmas r u using them as tie rod ends too???

[Kinarfi]

Not replacing the tie rod ends, yet, but I am rebuilding the ball joints.

I take the ball joint and grind the weld off, most of the welds are broken any way, and unscrew the cap off and then, using a Dremel, I remove all the burrs from the weld marks. I then grind down body so the cap can be screwed down a little tighter on the ball, thus removing some or all of the excess play in the ball joint. I also use my Dremel to grind a very small channels in the ball so grease can pass from the zerk that I mount in the cap to the rubber boot so the ball is surrounded by fresh grease which should increase it's life span considerably, if I had new ball joints from Joyner, I would do the same to them also, zerk, groove the ball, etc. When I'm all done, I weld the cap a bit more solidly than it was originally. I also plan to use a generous amount of Loctite to secure the ball joint.

Because I have a few extra ball joints, I plan to take the most damaged one, and grind it down so it is flush with the top of the ball joint mount and then drill a small hole between the mount and the ground down ball joint so I can put a small pin between the bracket and joint to keep it from being able to turn.

Kinarfi

[charlie]

This sounds pretty Awsome do are you going todo that to the uppers and lower balljoints? Will the balljoint still need and be held in with the c-clip??? Let me know how they come out I'd be willing to buy new joints and pay u for your time to modify sets for me

[Kinarfi]

Yes, it still needs snap rings. I plan to make at least 4 for the upper and lower ball joints and if I have enough parts & pieces to make more, I will and then choose what I think are the 4 best.

[Kinarfi]

If you are going to pull the 8 heim joints, put a mark on them so you tell which one went wear, stamp a number or letter on each or multiple center punch marks on each one so you can tell which was upper rear left etc etc,.

Then take a flat piece metal or stiff plastic, and drill a hole in it that the bolt can fit into, really tight is best. then before you pull the old hiem, put a piece of masking tape along the front and rear of each A arm, put the bolt through the hole, hold the metal tight against the arm where you taped it and mark the end of the the metal, my piece of metal was around 8" and the hole was an inch or so off center, so I marked both ends. that way, you can screw the new hiem to match the old.

[charlie]

Kinarfi Im not sure I totally understand what you are saying here, is this all to align the new joints in the a-arms??? I was under the impression the new Hiem joints come assembled and you screw them into the a-arm and adjust for proper alignment???? I got a few things going on right now so im not rushing into this just trying to make sure I understand it all

thank U