Another conversion to Lithium (and a few questions)

[gridlock]

After three years, my Sector completely died.  Something caused the hot wire under the seat from the charger to disintegrate, so the batteries weren't being charged.  The batteries weren't charging 100% anymore, so decided to convert to lithium.

As most others have done, I went with 4-48v batteries in parallel, as I believe that will be plenty of amp-hours for my needs, but can always add more if needed.  I went with LiTime wired CAN batteries and mounted their digital gauge on the dash above the current one, which fit perfectly.  I didn't think the existing battery brackets worked well for the new batteries, so made my own out of aluminum L rails, which makes it much more secure (and saves a few more ounces :)).  Since I wired them in a 'balanced' configuration, I had to make all new cables from 0/1 gauge wire and 8mm posts.  I updated the DeltaQ charger to profile 233. Cleaned everything up (I must have vacuumed 20 pounds of dirt!), put it all together and... wham!

So far, it definitely is better than with the original AGM batteries.  Sustains speed better going up hills, and seems to have plenty of reserve current.  The difference in weight with 4 LiPo vs 8 AGM batteries surely doesn't hurt!

Thanks to everyone on this forum, but special shoutout to GNFO who was a big help.

A few questions:

In the 'any tips' thread, EVSupport mentioned reprogramming the Sevcon to reflect the new discharge curve of the lithium cells, but I didn't see any more info about that or how to do that.  Is there any more info about that?

Have folks replaced the onboard 12v battery, and if so, with lithium?  I'm not sure why there is a 12v battery; why didn't they just step down the current of the 48v system to provide power to accessories?

Is there a recommendation as far as charging with the lithium conversion?  As far as I understand, it is better to let lithium batteries discharge somewhat (but not completely) than keep them charging all the time.  What do you think?

 

[GNFO]

You're very welcome.  I'm glad that you're happy with the performance. Even new, those Discover batteries were definitely a weak point to this UTV.  Nice brackets by the way.

EVSupport can answer better than me, but he has the resources to reprogram the Sevcon.  I believe it takes dedicated equipment and software, and for his conversions he was using repurposed car EV batteries that might have needed the change. Now that they have GC2 lithium batteries deliberately made to replace golf cart batteries, I think reprogramming the Sevcon probably isn't necessary.  I've been working just fine for over two years now without touching the Sevcon.

There is a piece in one of the other threads where the 12V battery is discussed. I also own two Teslas and they also have a 12V battery.  It runs some of the electrics that only work off of 12V, acts as a buffer, and I think it also is used to "wake up" the system when you turn the key. You might be able to find a 12V lithium that works, but the DC/DC converter onboard is made to work with a lead battery. There is a strong chance that the 12V charging could have problems due to the new battery having a BMS that is expecting different charging parameters, and you can't reprogram that like you could the Delta-Q.  The small lead battery isn't that expensive and is pretty easy to swap out every 3-4 years.  You do have to occasionally check it though by turning off your 48V batteries and testing the voltage after it sits. Reason being that since the 48V system constantly tops off the 12V, it could be masking a failing 12V battery.  When I checked it (4 years old), I found it was down to 6 volts without the 48V system propping it up.

Probably many different camps regarding charge limits. Personally I just don't worry about it and plug in, letting the BMS handle things. It might be better to let the charge go down occasionally for BMS calibration, but just like with my Teslas, I just don't bother. For my cars, some people say just charge to 80%, or say limit supercharging.  I just have it set at 90% like originally suggested and plug in every time I come home, and their batteries are doing just fine at almost 8 years old. I know I can't set the UTV batteries to 90%, but again I'm just trusting the BMS. I find that it charges to 100%, and then the batteries let things settle if I don't use it for a while until natural drain eventually falls to ~95% before charging again.

[Tommy2bits]

The guy I bought mine from said some thing that made sense, plug in the OEM plug and charge it "for a while" until the little 12v is charged up and it will charge the Lithium as well but don't do full charging that way. Once the 12v is charged (Just ballpark it and don't check or sweat it), unplug and plug in the charger that came with the lithium battery to correctly finish off the charging so there is no overcharging or trickle charging. 

[GNFO]

7 hours ago, Tommy2bits said:

The guy I bought mine from said some thing that made sense, plug in the OEM plug and charge it "for a while" until the little 12v is charged up and it will charge the Lithium as well but don't do full charging that way. Once the 12v is charged (Just ballpark it and don't check or sweat it), unplug and plug in the charger that came with the lithium battery to correctly finish off the charging so there is no overcharging or trickle charging. 

Based on the above, I'm wondering (and a little confused) how the guy you bought yours from does his conversions. The way gridlock did his, and myself and a number of others here, we took out the 8 old lead AGM 6V GC2 form factor batteries wired in series and dropped in 48V LiFePO4 GC2 form factor batteries, usually four of them wired in parallel is enough, but more can be added.  

It depends on the replacement battery maker, but decent batteries have a BMS that allows for interconnection with the other batteries built-in BMSs via CANbus cables or maybe bluetooth. This lets all of them coordinate discharge and charging. This is usually also how the new display is wired.

Most of us also just changed the charging profile used by the OEM charger located in the center front of the UTV (IC1200 model by Delta Q). A few used a different onboard or offboard charger, but if the Delta Q is still working it's not really necessary.  Changing the profile just takes a memory stick and the profile and procedures you can download off the Delta Q website.

So, back to the install done by your seller.  I don't get why you would still have the OEM charger AND "the charger that came with the lithium battery" both connected. Is that other charger an off board one? The Delta Q charger charges the 48V main pack batteries and they in turn continuously top off the 12V battery through a DC/DC converter. If the seller is saying to plug in the OEM charger "for a while" to charge up the 12V, that doesn't make any sense given how the charging system is meant to operate. It does however make me think that he left the Delta Q connected but didn't change the charging profile, so it still feeds 48V+ volts based on the lead AGM profile to the new batteries. That would match him saying to not do full charging because using the lead profile could damage the new batteries. That's why there are different profiles that can be loaded into the charger; it's actually one of the nicer and more versatile pieces of equipment Hisun chose to use. 

As long as the DC/DC converter is still working, there is no need to do anything different to charge the 12V battery.

[Tommy2bits]

3 hours ago, GNFO said:

Based on the above, I'm wondering (and a little confused) how the guy you bought yours from does his conversions. The way gridlock did his, and myself and a number of others here, we took out the 8 old lead AGM 6V GC2 form factor batteries wired in series and dropped in 48V LiFePO4 GC2 form factor batteries, usually four of them wired in parallel is enough, but more can be added.  

It depends on the replacement battery maker, but decent batteries have a BMS that allows for interconnection with the other batteries built-in BMSs via CANbus cables or maybe bluetooth. This lets all of them coordinate discharge and charging. This is usually also how the new display is wired.

Most of us also just changed the charging profile used by the OEM charger located in the center front of the UTV (IC1200 model by Delta Q). A few used a different onboard or offboard charger, but if the Delta Q is still working it's not really necessary.  Changing the profile just takes a memory stick and the profile and procedures you can download off the Delta Q website.

So, back to the install done by your seller.  I don't get why you would still have the OEM charger AND "the charger that came with the lithium battery" both connected. Is that other charger an off board one? The Delta Q charger charges the 48V main pack batteries and they in turn continuously top off the 12V battery through a DC/DC converter. If the seller is saying to plug in the OEM charger "for a while" to charge up the 12V, that doesn't make any sense given how the charging system is meant to operate. It does however make me think that he left the Delta Q connected but didn't change the charging profile, so it still feeds 48V+ volts based on the lead AGM profile to the new batteries. That would match him saying to not do full charging because using the lead profile could damage the new batteries. That's why there are different profiles that can be loaded into the charger; it's actually one of the nicer and more versatile pieces of equipment Hisun chose to use. 

As long as the DC/DC converter is still working, there is no need to do anything different to charge the 12V battery.

I think the key reason for the two chargers is like you said, the old charger is set up for the lead acid profile and charging cycle and allows trickle charging. You don't want that, he didn't have a memory stick to change the Delta Q, which I'd like to do, but I just bought the thing. 

[Tommy2bits]

So where can I get this memory stick with the additional profile everybody keeps talking about? From Delta Q?

[GNFO]

38 minutes ago, Tommy2bits said:

So where can I get this memory stick with the additional profile everybody keeps talking about? From Delta Q?

The memory stick is any standard USB memory stick you would use for your computer. You just download the files from the Delta Q website and follow their instructions.  The files get loaded on the memory stick from your computer, and then the instructions show how you plug the stick in to the covered USB port on the charger.  No disassembly required - you can pretty easily reach it under the right front wheel well.  However, profile #233 which some folks have used, might actually already be in the charger's memory and you just have to tell it to use that one.  I don't remember what's resident in memory since I used a profile that had been made specifically for my brand of batteries, and the Delta Q website lists those too.

What brand and model are your batteries? Also, this assumes you have the Delta Q charger.  I don't know what year Hisun changed the onboard charger and the motor controller, but they were the Delta Q and Sevcon respectively at least as recent as 2022.

Look at this thread, and on post #6 I list a number of links. 

 

[Tommy2bits]

5 hours ago, GNFO said:

The memory stick is any standard USB memory stick you would use for your computer. You just download the files from the Delta Q website and follow their instructions.  The files get loaded on the memory stick from your computer, and then the instructions show how you plug the stick in to the covered USB port on the charger.  No disassembly required - you can pretty easily reach it under the right front wheel well.  However, profile #233 which some folks have used, might actually already be in the charger's memory and you just have to tell it to use that one.  I don't remember what's resident in memory since I used a profile that had been made specifically for my brand of batteries, and the Delta Q website lists those too.

What brand and model are your batteries? Also, this assumes you have the Delta Q charger.  I don't know what year Hisun changed the onboard charger and the motor controller, but they were the Delta Q and Sevcon respectively at least as recent as 2022.

Look at this thread, and on post #6 I list a number of links. 

 

Thanks for the info, I've seen some posts that say the Delta Q has an acceptable profile and I've seen others say the USB update is needed but I haven't reached that point as I've only had it a couple days but it's been on the list. The battery is a single Newtipower 135ah LiFePO4 with 2C grade cells and 200amp output. Only had one full weekend with it and got 27 miles. mostly in High. I would probably do 30 miles on the Max range setting, that's about what I expected which is great for me

[GNFO]

Interesting. Not how I would choose to do it since it required alteration of the trays to make it fit and a single 122lb battery is harder to load than four 35lb batteries.  Plus, with a max continuous of 200A, it can't fully hit the potential of the 400A capable motor.  However, batteries do have ratings for higher amps at a shorter duration, but I don't see those numbers listed anywhere on their website.

At any rate, I would imagine any of the charging profiles for 48V LiFePO4 batteries would work for the Delta Q.  The battery wouldn't explain a too aggressive regen though, so I would still check the parking brake mechanism.  It's forward of the motor, under the dump bed.

Did you confirm your 2023 model still uses the Delta Q charger?

[keith421]

I just finished removing the discover batteries and installing a 48v 100ah  48V 100Ah LiFePO4 Lithium Battery 200A BMS 10240W cost $610 on EBAY 

I installed the charger that came with it and it has Bluetooth. So far its great fairly easy to install and drives much faster without the extra 520lbs.

I do not need to but might want to use the original charger, how do I change it to the correct setting?

 

TIA  keith

[GNFO]

14 hours ago, keith421 said:

I just finished removing the discover batteries and installing a 48v 100ah  48V 100Ah LiFePO4 Lithium Battery 200A BMS 10240W cost $610 on EBAY 

I installed the charger that came with it and it has Bluetooth. So far its great fairly easy to install and drives much faster without the extra 520lbs.

I do not need to but might want to use the original charger, how do I change it to the correct setting?

 

TIA  keith

Mine had a custom profile the battery manufacturer created specifically for them, but if you look through some of the other E1 conversion threads here you'll see the links to the Delta-Q pages showing the steps and some of the others here I think listed what stock profile they used.

Regarding your particular setup, since your battery has max continuous output of 200A vs the 400A max of the motor, just keep in mind that some folks have had problems with the motor cutting out because of the draw. I think it totally depends on the how the battery handles it and what the motor controller sees in the voltage as a result, and what their time-limited amperage draw specs are, so you may be just fine. Most have no problems. If you do encounter a problem remember that it could be related to that. I believe the person who had a problem added a second battery in parallel and it went away.

[keith421]

I rarely take this out on the street it's more of a work tool around here. But, Just to check I went about 1/8 of mile and it got to 28 mph and made the roof rattle like it was going to fly off.

So, as far as I'm concerned it was an amazing investment ( the battery).