KLUNG MOTORS OR ANY CHINESE MANUFACTURER MAKING DIRECT CONTACT PLEASE READ

[whobbies]

I am Tony C. owner of Warehouse Hobbies Inc. a 30 year hobby manufacture in the US. I also like toys and purchased a Joyner Trooper mainly for the wife and Grand kids to blast around on the weekends. Anyway I too am experiencing the typical problems I have heard from many on this great site, and I would like to thank those who have chimed in on my account as well.

I just read a forum about a manufacture attempting to sell parts from China direct to us. Please understand while this may be very tempting you have to be very careful doing so, not as much as the manufacture not sending you the parts, but more of the wrong parts, or even worse ill-tested parts. Now this manufacture may very well be a good one, but I can attest that after spending the past 20 years doing business (mainly injection molds) with China you have to know who you are dealing with, the word "trust" is thrown around lightly, and face to face eye contact is well worth the 27 hour one way plane trip.

Shipping for anything that weights more than 10 pounds is insane by EMS post (air), and consolidation by sea can yeild you with plenty of parts that may not be able to be sold, or used. I am also concerned with the quotes provided, especially the one for $350.00. The company is using ebay or other internet means to establish a US selling price when in fact that part more than likely cost 1/3rd at the most and probably less to manufacture. A quality importer would pay less than $100.00 for that part, such as a ECU.

If you try to deal direct than price negotiation is in perfect order. Lets face it the pay scale in China today is $8-10 per day not hour. I am not trying to upset this manufacture I would just like all my Joyner friends to understand what is taking place now with direct China to the US business. Also know that in 99.9% of the cases that you pay up front by TT or Paypal, and getting a refund is almost non-existant.

I have contacted one of the companies I deal with in China to get a little bit of info about the one contacting us here. There are many, many factories over there and one copies another, (and you thought we were the only one's being copied). The problem is lack of testing, they don't have the places like we do to use the vehicles, or operate them the way some, OK most of us do. I once went to a factory in China where they tested 1/5th scale gas radio controlled buggies in a flat parking lot 1/2 the size of a football field. These buggies are designed to be jumped and run at speeds over 60 MPH, what kind of testing can be done on a black top parking lot that equals off road abuse? Needless to say after selling a few thousand pieces around the world they are no longer in business. The sad part is the buggy wasn't too bad it just needed a little changes here and there, sort of like Joyner, but the wrong people were at the helm...

Unless there is a representitive whos best interest (ass and or wallet) is on the line, frequently visiting the factory after the "correct" engineering and testing has been done, problems are very likely. We are a nation of repair-aholics, and they also can not seem to understand the importance of spare parts, not yet anyway. After enough of them fail for not properlly making spare part runs like the small Chinese Quad epidemic we had upon us a few years ago maybe they may soon get it... What happened to the 10 million that were imported from 2006-2008? Those are real numbers. The last time I visited one of the largest manufactures for those products in Northern China, the giant factory looked like a ghost town. One of the ladies in the office asked me why not so popular in the US anymore?

I told her when you make a customer buy an entire chain to get a master link, you will loose the customer, She didn't get it.

Sometmes we assume that because a company that makes the product cares about our well being and our success with it, and in cases like my company where I am an enthusist of my products, some do. I have found that has not been the case when dealing with China without US or other countries influence for the most part, and again that's not to say in the future when their economy permits them to purchase their own Joyner buggies and they find themselves stranded in the woods with it, that they won't start improving their quality, because that and closing up shop my friends is usually the only things that kicks a manufacture in the ass about addressing what needs to be done to make improvement.

I hope to pass a little bit of education to those reading this so the excitment of a prospect of finding that hard to get part doesn't end up costing you more money and grief.

For me, even with all my years of import experience (hobby products) I think I will wait for some of our US Joyner distributers containers to arrive.

Sinceerly,

Tony Castronovo

President, Warehouse Hobbies Inc.

American Hobby Manufacture since 1981

Some call us a Dinosaur.....and you know what happened to the Dinosaurs...

[brostar]

What Tony said on steroids. Very wise words indeed and can back up 100% what you have just said. It may be long, but read it all the way through. Experience gives to insight, understanding and knowledge and you have plenty of all three Tony.

The Joyner stock parts will be available very soon. Please remember the lack of Joyner parts in North America is nothing to do with the manufactures at all and they are doing their upmost to give you the support that you all deserve. Ken Morris has spent a great deal of his time in China making sure that Joyner parts are going to be up to standard, I’m talking years of time with input like designing, testing and tweaking from an American engineer, not a wham bam thank you man product copied and made overnight. Be very careful with what parts you buy. Joyner has just upped it’s quality standards as you will all find out in the coming months.

Cheers Mike.

[rocmoc]

Welcome Tony and thanks for the advice.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[klung-motor.com]

well. Thanks for your advice to our work .

We are fully open minded to your ideas.

First of all ,we want to say that we want to do some good things to this community ,do some good to everybody.

The buggy and UTV industry is what we live ,work and love.

I don't care what other companies did but we care ourselves. we care our NAME. We care our reputation .

For the customers , we want to fix their problem and provide them better value products and service.

We don't want bring a new problem to them and we confirm them everything before shipment and get the money by PAYPAL.

For the importers,distributors, dealers.,etc ,we can say we are also a choice for your business.

We want to establish a double win cooperation with you .

our price is based on the quantity you can buy but it is already low enough .

The internet save everybody's money.

We welcome importer visit us in china and talk with us about our buggies face to face .

We can also be your trustable partner here in China for your business with China.

The products and service we offer are based on our experience,channnels ,resources .

let what we do prove what we say .

Give us a try to see if we can serve you better.

Thank you .

[rocmoc]

well. Thanks for your advice to our work .

We are fully open minded to your ideas.

First of all ,we want to say that we want to do some good things to this community ,do some good to everybody.

The buggy and UTV industry is what we live ,work and love.

I don't care what other companies did but we care ourselves. we care our NAME. We care our reputation .

For the customers , we want to fix their problem and provide them better value products and service.

We don't want bring a new problem to them and we confirm them everything before shipment and get the money by PAYPAL.

For the importers,distributors, dealers.,etc ,we can say we are also a choice for your business.

We want to establish a double win cooperation with you .

our price is based on the quantity you can buy but it is already low enough .

The internet save everybody's money.

We welcome importer visit us in china and talk with us about our buggies face to face .

We can also be your trustable partner here in China for your business with China.

The products and service we offer are based on our experience,channnels ,resources .

let what we do prove what we say .

Give us a try to see if we can serve you better.

Thank you .

We look forward to you helping to rebuilding the relationship with the Joyner owners. We certainly have been left adrift the last couple of years with the exception of a couple USA dealers.

I do most of my purchases on the internet now once I find a reliable site. Saves time & money. The one most important feature is the return policy. It has to be good & allow nearly 100% returns to the customer or I don't use the site.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[whobbies]

What Tony said on steroids. Very wise words indeed and can back up 100% what you have just said. It may be long, but read it all the way through. Experience gives to insight, understanding and knowledge and you have plenty of all three Tony.

The Joyner stock parts will be available very soon. Please remember the lack of Joyner parts in North America is nothing to do with the manufactures at all and they are doing their upmost to give you the support that you all deserve. Ken Morris has spent a great deal of his time in China making sure that Joyner parts are going to be up to standard, I’m talking years of time with input like designing, testing and tweaking from an American engineer, not a wham bam thank you man product copied and made overnight. Be very careful with what parts you buy. Joyner has just upped it’s quality standards as you will all find out in the coming months.

Cheers Mike.

I wasn't sure how my advice would be accepted, and thought I may have over-stepped my bounds, but worth taking the chance to let you know as well as any other manufacture whom reads this, and is looking for our business to know that we are on the ball, and they better be as well. Klung wants to be trusted and that must be earned, no harm intended in any way, I am repling to a solicitation. I am glad to be able to share any experiences both good and bad with anyone who wants to listen.

I am regarded as one of the most innovative person in my industry and that is not self proclaimed, that is due to a steller 30 year business and service record, and helping other hobbiests be successful whether with my product or a competitiors. With that said I still recommend potential customers to do their homework and not just listen to what I say but other hobbiests and manufacturers to make an educated decision.

The part about Ken spending a great deal of time in the factory (s) is exactly what I meant and have done to forge a relationship as equal to one that you may have with the shop that repairs your personal cars. So though I do not know Ken I aplaud his dedication and I am sure we will all see QC and improvements as the years go by.

Too many guys/engineers tend to spend too much time in the KTV's....LOL, Ken will know what I mean.

I will stop talking now and look for some parts to repair my Trooper.

Thanks,

Tony C.

[brostar]

Ken moved to China, so his commitment is not in doubt at all.

Cheers Mike.

[rocmoc]

Ken moved to China, so his commitment is not in doubt at all.

Cheers Mike.

Could be he wanted to move to a country with a growing middle class & a future. (oops, did I say that!)

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[klung-motor.com]

We look forward to you helping to rebuilding the relationship with the Joyner owners. We certainly have been left adrift the last couple of years with the exception of a couple USA dealers.

I do most of my purchases on the internet now once I find a reliable site. Saves time & money. The one most important feature is the return policy. It has to be good & allow nearly 100% returns to the customer or I don't use the site.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

ok. Thank you for your support .I feel the courage and confidence.

I am just be here to be honest with you. the customers.

I would be your another eye for what is exactly happening in this buggy ,UTV world ,either in U.S. and China.

Regarding the return policy , I promise that we return the moeny 100% if there is a serious quality issue or wrong part, dealy ,or not sent .

Thanks.

[brostar]

klung-motor.com, I guess the words to take on board from what whobbies said and I backed up is listen to what you western customers are telling you. Let me short cut that for you. We know China is very capable of producing anything we ask of you, oh but the thing to remember and get right is, “do it just like we asked you to”. Chinese want to try so hard to impress us, but the problem is, you would manufacture it in your part of China, how Chinese would do it. That's it right there, we want it how we like it, not how you want to impress us. Do it our way, not yours because we are the consumers and buyers, not somebody who thinks like you in your province. Take this advice on board and carry on with what you have already been producing and Klung-motor. com guess what? You have just positioned yourself to become part of the market place Globally . I have looked at your website and you have some attractive units, but I would not even contemplate contacting you without some form of a western influence after what I have learnt from the last four years that I have been importing from China. Do it to American standards, design and appeal and they will buy your product. The photo you posted of a Joyner like diff would make most of UTV Board members want to throw up. Mate, you simply have to do better than that.

I am blown away with what Great Wall of China has achieved in New Zealand in a short couple of years and this is what I’m trying to tell you. Listen to us, we are your customers. For those that don’t know Great Wall of China Utes, they have gone from 1 or 2 stars in crash tests to 4 and 5 stars within two years. The big Japanese brands took 20 years to do that. That’s impressive and China should be proud.

I will give you an example of how it goes wrong from a New Zealand and Western prospective;

A New Zealand company called Pacific Hovercraft NZ Ltd contracts a company in China called Supreme Hovercraft aka China Hovercraft to manufacture and build Hovercrafts to a specific design and build. There is major contracts and pre-sales already in place but China Hovercraft go off in their own direction to save money and produce the first run of Hovercrafts. This story gets long here but to get my drift with facts backing it all up, read all the way through.

Over 12 years Pacific Hovercraft NZ Ltd (PHNZ - www.hovercraft.co.nz) has developed a range of hovercraft and exported them worldwide. The company built many craft ranging from 2-12 seats in size and then secured a number of orders for even larger craft from Malaysia and India. Due to a lack of capital, the drastically fluctuating NZ dollar value, the high cost of labour, and harassment by IRD (NZ Tax Dept.), PHNZ sought to take on a suitable business partner and set up an overseas factory to satisfy these orders. They looked at China.

PHNZ signed an Agreement with Mr Yang (Supreme Hovercraft aka China Hovercraft) which, among other things, included royalty payments for each and every craft built in China. PHNZ company engineers moved to China in early 2008, trained the Chinese workers, and built the first 12 hovercraft. There were a number of issues relating to faulty Chinese parts, unskilled workers, and the first ever craft built in China being sold and delivered even before they were finished or tested. Despite the agreement (and his Chamber of Commerce speech) Mr Yang did not buy the NZ company (let alone for a purchase price of US$14m!), he has never paid royalties, and he still owes PHNZ workers salaries.

To cut this story short, the New Zealand company is owed millions of dollars, the moulds, designs and jigs, but the Chinese company is suing the New Zealand company for Millions od Dollars for lost revenue. The revenue was lost because of the Chinese manufacture doing it all wrong. If they had simply done what was required, both companies would be enjoying a Million dollar turnover.

Google for the full story, but do you get my drift klung-motor.com, because if you don’t, you are all ready in dire straits.

Joyner has made this connection and is about to enjoy the benefits of it. Am I full of crap, do I just talk it up, only time will tell for you, but I already know the answer.

Sorry about the long post, but I feel it was worth it.

Cheers Mike.

[whobbies]

Could be he wanted to move to a country with a growing middle class & a future. (oops, did I say that!)

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

NO that's not it, I know why he moved.... OK guys what's more important to us (most of us anyway) than motorcycles and off road toys?

[whobbies]

klung-motor.com, I guess the words to take on board from what whobbies said and I backed up is listen to what you western customers are telling you. Let me short cut that for you. We know China is very capable of producing anything we ask of you, oh but the thing to remember and get right is, “do it just like we asked you to”. Chinese want to try so hard to impress us, but the problem is, you would manufacture it in your part of China, how Chinese would do it. That's it right there, we want it how we like it, not how you want to impress us. Do it our way, not yours because we are the consumers and buyers, not somebody who thinks like you in your province. Take this advice on board and carry on with what you have already been producing and Klung-motor. com guess what? You have just positioned yourself to become part of the market place Globally . I have looked at your website and you have some attractive units, but I would not even contemplate contacting you without some form of a western influence after what I have learnt from the last four years that I have been importing from China. Do it to American standards, design and appeal and they will buy your product. The photo you posted of a Joyner like diff would make most of UTV Board members want to throw up. Mate, you simply have to do better than that.

I am blown away with what Great Wall of China has achieved in New Zealand in a short couple of years and this is what I’m trying to tell you. Listen to us, we are your customers. For those that don’t know Great Wall of China Utes, they have gone from 1 or 2 stars in crash tests to 4 and 5 stars within two years. The big Japanese brands took 20 years to do that. That’s impressive and China should be proud.

I will give you an example of how it goes wrong from a New Zealand and Western prospective;

A New Zealand company called Pacific Hovercraft NZ Ltd contracts a company in China called Supreme Hovercraft aka China Hovercraft to manufacture and build Hovercrafts to a specific design and build. There is major contracts and pre-sales already in place but China Hovercraft go off in their own direction to save money and produce the first run of Hovercrafts. This story gets long here but to get my drift with facts backing it all up, read all the way through.

Over 12 years Pacific Hovercraft NZ Ltd (PHNZ - www.hovercraft.co.nz) has developed a range of hovercraft and exported them worldwide. The company built many craft ranging from 2-12 seats in size and then secured a number of orders for even larger craft from Malaysia and India. Due to a lack of capital, the drastically fluctuating NZ dollar value, the high cost of labour, and harassment by IRD (NZ Tax Dept.), PHNZ sought to take on a suitable business partner and set up an overseas factory to satisfy these orders. They looked at China.

PHNZ signed an Agreement with Mr Yang (Supreme Hovercraft aka China Hovercraft) which, among other things, included royalty payments for each and every craft built in China. PHNZ company engineers moved to China in early 2008, trained the Chinese workers, and built the first 12 hovercraft. There were a number of issues relating to faulty Chinese parts, unskilled workers, and the first ever craft built in China being sold and delivered even before they were finished or tested. Despite the agreement (and his Chamber of Commerce speech) Mr Yang did not buy the NZ company (let alone for a purchase price of US$14m!), he has never paid royalties, and he still owes PHNZ workers salaries.

To cut this story short, the New Zealand company is owed millions of dollars, the moulds, designs and jigs, but the Chinese company is suing the New Zealand company for Millions od Dollars for lost revenue. The revenue was lost because of the Chinese manufacture doing it all wrong. If they had simply done what was required, both companies would be enjoying a Million dollar turnover.

Google for the full story, but do you get my drift klung-motor.com, because if you don’t, you are all ready in dire straits.

Joyner has made this connection and is about to enjoy the benefits of it. Am I full of crap, do I just talk it up, only time will tell for you, but I already know the answer.

Sorry about the long post, but I feel it was worth it.

Cheers Mike.

Mike,

On occaision I will stand in front of a meat market on the streets in China and look at the carcusses in the window. Yes most are recognizable but some I could look at in doubt which I coined a phrase with a friend a few years back that has stuck in the hobby business that fits well with both the meats being sold and also some products being made. We call it...."Looks like, could be"

[whobbies]

Mike,

On occaision I will stand in front of a meat market on the streets in China and look at the carcusses in the window. Yes most are recognizable but some I could look at in doubt which I coined a phrase with a friend a few years back that has stuck in the hobby business that fits well with both the meats being sold and also some products being made. We call it...."Looks like, could be"

Mike,

Good write and I am sure there is truth to it and it can't hurt to tell the truth. It's a shame how many good ideas don't come to be over ego, pride, and greed. We as Americans are a country of folks that don't give up for the most part. I hate it when one of my products receives complaints, and it doesn't take several hundred or thousand returns, and me trying to recoupe my companies investment for me to change. I have been known to stop production on a product, or at the very least talk to my engineers and re-test on a personal level with a single complaint.

In America most of us business owners fear the fact that they may be out of business any day, and that has included me of the past 30 years. I don't see the fear in the offshore companies, and some are so deversafied that Hell, if the dune buggy fails to sell we still have generators, sewing machines, and so on. Sometimes they are affended when I tell them of a problem, and more-so when I offer a solution. But not all are like this, and many are beginning to hear what you and I are saying. I have a relationship with an awesome company in China, one that is now going on almost 15 years. The owners have visited me and my family at my home in Florida and vice a versa. They always send me samples and ask me if there is anything that can be done to make the products better. I think they always had this way about them, but I continue to tell them of the importance of satisfing the customers with support and of course support parts, so we can have a long lasting business, which has turned into a friendship.

By having them come to the US has really opened thier eyes and have given them a different perspective, and let me tell you guys , they have an unbelievable respect for the US, and all they want as people is the same from us and to be able to enjoy life and an economy similar to ours.

My Chinese friend could not believe their influence when I took him to Walmart, we made a game of trying to find some or at least a single product that did not come from China, he was blown-away.

I look at it like this. You can't have it all forever, but we as Americans can't afford to loose it all forever either. China started coping my R/C model boats back in 2000 lead by one of my /our own US distributers, and so we are all on the same page, we can't blame China alone, I can safely say that most domestic products were brought overseas to be copied within our own domestic industries, by the people we once did business with for many years. This was a snowball effect that has been taking place for the past two decades in almost every industry. What started as greed has become a real problem and a unfair playing field if you are a US based business with US personel such as us. However, with this said it has been almost 12 years and we are still in business and doing business, even though 180 degrees away, it is to be considered overall competition that requires constant innovation, and you have to address it with more quality, service, and pride, just like if your competitor was on the same turf.

I am glad to see all these guys talking on this subject. Now one or more of you smart guys go get yourself a lathe and a milling machine, (Harbor Freight sells some pretty good a cheap one's , and guess what they are made in China) and make some parts for these vehicles, it feels good to put a "Made-In-America" sticker on, I know. I'll buy the first manual 4WD actuator.

Thanks,

Tony C.

[ricksrb]

Mike,

Good write and I am sure there is truth to it and it can't hurt to tell the truth. It's a shame how many good ideas don't come to be over ego, pride, and greed. We as Americans are a country of folks that don't give up for the most part. I hate it when one of my products receives complaints, and it doesn't take several hundred or thousand returns, and me trying to recoupe my companies investment for me to change. I have been known to stop production on a product, or at the very least talk to my engineers and re-test on a personal level with a single complaint.

In America most of us business owners fear the fact that they may be out of business any day, and that has included me of the past 30 years. I don't see the fear in the offshore companies, and some are so deversafied that Hell, if the dune buggy fails to sell we still have generators, sewing machines, and so on. Sometimes they are affended when I tell them of a problem, and more-so when I offer a solution. But not all are like this, and many are beginning to hear what you and I are saying. I have a relationship with an awesome company in China, one that is now going on almost 15 years. The owners have visited me and my family at my home in Florida and vice a versa. They always send me samples and ask me if there is anything that can be done to make the products better. I think they always had this way about them, but I continue to tell them of the importance of satisfing the customers with support and of course support parts, so we can have a long lasting business, which has turned into a friendship.

By having them come to the US has really opened thier eyes and have given them a different perspective, and let me tell you guys , they have an unbelievable respect for the US, and all they want as people is the same from us and to be able to enjoy life and an economy similar to ours.

My Chinese friend could not believe their influence when I took him to Walmart, we made a game of trying to find some or at least a single product that did not come from China, he was blown-away.

I look at it like this. You can't have it all forever, but we as Americans can't afford to loose it all forever either. China started coping my R/C model boats back in 2000 lead by one of my /our own US distributers, and so we are all on the same page, we can't blame China alone, I can safely say that most domestic products were brought overseas to be copied within our own domestic industries, by the people we once did business with for many years. This was a snowball effect that has been taking place for the past two decades in almost every industry. What started as greed has become a real problem and a unfair playing field if you are a US based business with US personel such as us. However, with this said it has been almost 12 years and we are still in business and doing business, even though 180 degrees away, it is to be considered overall competition that requires constant innovation, and you have to address it with more quality, service, and pride, just like if your competitor was on the same turf.

I am glad to see all these guys talking on this subject. Now one or more of you smart guys go get yourself a lathe and a milling machine, (Harbor Freight sells some pretty good a cheap one's , and guess what they are made in China) and make some parts for these vehicles, it feels good to put a "Made-In-America" sticker on, I know. I'll buy the first manual 4WD actuator.

Thanks,

Tony C.

Tony,

regarding your last paragraph.Lenny is already doing that.