Where to these wires go?

[gridlock]

I purchased my Hisun Sector E1 three years ago.  I think there are a few hundred miles on it, and lots of charging.  A couple of weeks ago it started sputtering a lot, not charging fully, and discharging fast.  I took a look at the battery compartment under the seat, and noticed this (picture below) which certainly explains a lot!

Questions:

1) Where are those disconnected and corroded wires suppose to go?

2) I took out half the batteries thinking they might be in bad shape, but measured 5.4v on all of them, which doesn't seem bad considering they probably haven't been charging for a while.  Do you think I should replace them all at this point (after three years), or just fix the wiring (although I'm not sure what caused that to happen), or they may still be perfectly good?  I certainly don't want to put them all back (as I mentioned I removed four out of the eight only to have to remove them again if they are not in great shape.

3) If I do replace them, I noticed there are much cheaper options on Amazon for AGM 6v batteries (Weize GC2 is one option) that are the same size and slightly higher AH than the original Discovery ones.  Any thoughts about going with these?  I know a lot of folks replaced the AGM with lithuim, but not sure I want to go through the hassle of also replacing the onboard charger, etc.  I fine with AGM and getting a few years out of them.

Thanks!

[GNFO]

23 hours ago, gridlock said:

I purchased my Hisun Sector E1 three years ago.  I think there are a few hundred miles on it, and lots of charging.  A couple of weeks ago it started sputtering a lot, not charging fully, and discharging fast.  I took a look at the battery compartment under the seat, and noticed this (picture below) which certainly explains a lot!

Questions:

1) Where are those disconnected and corroded wires suppose to go?

2) I took out half the batteries thinking they might be in bad shape, but measured 5.4v on all of them, which doesn't seem bad considering they probably haven't been charging for a while.  Do you think I should replace them all at this point (after three years), or just fix the wiring (although I'm not sure what caused that to happen), or they may still be perfectly good?  I certainly don't want to put them all back (as I mentioned I removed four out of the eight only to have to remove them again if they are not in great shape.

3) If I do replace them, I noticed there are much cheaper options on Amazon for AGM 6v batteries (Weize GC2 is one option) that are the same size and slightly higher AH than the original Discovery ones.  Any thoughts about going with these?  I know a lot of folks replaced the AGM with lithuim, but not sure I want to go through the hassle of also replacing the onboard charger, etc.  I fine with AGM and getting a few years out of them.

Thanks!

Funny enough, on mine that green wire terminates in a connection fitting but isn't actually connected to anything.  The red wire certainly looks bad. On the wiring diagram there aren't a lot of all green wires and my best guess is that is supposed to be connected a charging interlock, while the red wire isn't part of that so it is something else. I might point out that I just verified that, for better or worse, my E1 will actually move with the cord connected, so apparently I don't have that interlock and things work just fine without it. I don't see how the batteries themselves could be at fault for the burned wires problem. Maybe try splicing the red wire (which already looks like it's been spliced before) and leave the green disconnected? I can't tell from the picture if it looks like the red and green wires used to be somehow connected, which I don't think are supposed to be. Of course, you're going to have to put the four batteries you removed back in to test it since all eight Discovers are required to make 48V.

Regarding the change to lithium, you don't have to change the charger, just change the charging algorithm the Delta-Q uses. Mine has been just fine for two years now.

Regarding other batteries, you need to make sure their continuous amp output adds up to at least 400A to match the motor's capability. The GC2 form factor was originally made for golf carts that aren't nearly as powerful as an off-road capable UTV. My complaint with the original Discover batteries was that they were always incapable of providing full power on hills and I did wind up replacing them with lithium at around the 3 year mark.

[gridlock]

Thanks so much for the response!

Looking again, it looks like the red wire was attached to a positive post of one of the batteries.  Like you, the green wire has a connector, but I couldn't find any fitting that it was connected to!  Green color often means ground, so thought it should be somewhere to the chassis or battery negative terminal, but could not find anywhere where it was connected to.

I tried to charge one of the batteries with a 6v 5a Battery Tender charger I have, but it never indicated a full charge, so thinking I should get new batteries.  I didn't realize that the charging algorithm can be changed on the on-board charger: how is that done?  When you changed to lithium, how many batteries are you using?  I saw one video where someone is using two 48v lithium batteries in parallel, which may actually be less money than buying 8 6v AGP batteries, so maybe that makes more sense.  The one issue with lithium, is that they shouldn't be connected to the charger all the time like you can with wet-cell batteries, so need to be mindful of only charging when they are fairly discharged.

[GNFO]

41 minutes ago, gridlock said:

Thanks so much for the response!

Looking again, it looks like the red wire was attached to a positive post of one of the batteries.  Like you, the green wire has a connector, but I couldn't find any fitting that it was connected to!  Green color often means ground, so thought it should be somewhere to the chassis or battery negative terminal, but could not find anywhere where it was connected to.

I tried to charge one of the batteries with a 6v 5a Battery Tender charger I have, but it never indicated a full charge, so thinking I should get new batteries.  I didn't realize that the charging algorithm can be changed on the on-board charger: how is that done?  When you changed to lithium, how many batteries are you using?  I saw one video where someone is using two 48v lithium batteries in parallel, which may actually be less money than buying 8 6v AGP batteries, so maybe that makes more sense.  The one issue with lithium, is that they shouldn't be connected to the charger all the time like you can with wet-cell batteries, so need to be mindful of only charging when they are fairly discharged.

I do have the red wire and it is connected directly to a positive terminal, but it looks like it becomes part of a bundle along with the white and black wires that runs forward. So what I see on mine is slightly different than what I can see from that picture but maybe it's just the aspect. At any rate I would definitely fix that.

For the lithium conversion, look at the "Hisun Sector e1 Battery replacement: any tips?" thread.  There's a lot of good info there. Some have used one of the existing algorithms already loaded, some have changed the charger, some just use an offboard charger. For me, I went with ReLion Insight 48V GC2 batteries. Mostly because at the time they were the only ones available that had a 100A continuous output each, so four in parallel gives me 400A. The company had a Delta-Q IC1200 profile made just for them and they sent me the files and instructions to flash the new profile using a USB stick. Works great. Also, a good lithium battery will have an internal BMS that prevents the charging issue you talked about. It will also have either a physical CANbus connection between the batteries or an internal bluetooth link that allows all the batteries in parallel to coordinate their BMSs to manage load balancing between them. Mine use a CANbus, which also feeds a digital readout I installed in the dash so I can see the real state of the batteries rather than just a stacked bar.  The lithium isn't cheap and will probably cost more than AGM to begin with if you want the full 400A capability, but is usually warrantied for 2 or 3 times the life of a lead-based battery.  It was a night and day difference when I changed over. They're also much lighter, so I went from 8 x 65 lb Discover batteries to 4 x 36 lb lithium. The range from my 120aH is plenty for me (~12 miles in 4wd low with two people on tough terrain or maybe double that on flat ground), but if I really wanted it I can always add up to four more. Lithium can discharge much lower than lead-acid and frankly Hisun's range and amp-hours claims are suspect.

[gridlock]

9 hours ago, GNFO said:

I do have the red wire and it is connected directly to a positive terminal, but it looks like it becomes part of a bundle along with the white and black wires that runs forward. So what I see on mine is slightly different than what I can see from that picture but maybe it's just the aspect. At any rate I would definitely fix that.

For the lithium conversion, look at the "Hisun Sector e1 Battery replacement: any tips?" thread.  There's a lot of good info there. Some have used one of the existing algorithms already loaded, some have changed the charger, some just use an offboard charger. For me, I went with ReLion Insight 48V GC2 batteries. Mostly because at the time they were the only ones available that had a 100A continuous output each, so four in parallel gives me 400A. The company had a Delta-Q IC1200 profile made just for them and they sent me the files and instructions to flash the new profile using a USB stick. Works great. Also, a good lithium battery will have an internal BMS that prevents the charging issue you talked about. It will also have either a physical CANbus connection between the batteries or an internal bluetooth link that allows all the batteries in parallel to coordinate their BMSs to manage load balancing between them. Mine use a CANbus, which also feeds a digital readout I installed in the dash so I can see the real state of the batteries rather than just a stacked bar.  The lithium isn't cheap and will probably cost more than AGM to begin with if you want the full 400A capability, but is usually warrantied for 2 or 3 times the life of a lead-based battery.  It was a night and day difference when I changed over. They're also much lighter, so I went from 8 x 65 lb Discover batteries to 4 x 36 lb lithium. The range from my 120aH is plenty for me (~12 miles in 4wd low with two people on tough terrain or maybe double that on flat ground), but if I really wanted it I can always add up to four more. Lithium can discharge much lower than lead-acid and frankly Hisun's range and amp-hours claims are suspect.

Thanks so much for all the really useful info!  Would it be possible to get the files and instructions to flash the Delta charger?  I don't minding making some effort to convert to lithium, but I have other projects I'm working on, and at the moment, don't feel like starting to change out the charger, and the work that would entail.  If I can do the conversion without too many extra hours as compared to just swapping out the existing batteries for another set of AGM, then maybe I'll that.

[GNFO]

12 hours ago, gridlock said:

Thanks so much for all the really useful info!  Would it be possible to get the files and instructions to flash the Delta charger?  I don't minding making some effort to convert to lithium, but I have other projects I'm working on, and at the moment, don't feel like starting to change out the charger, and the work that would entail.  If I can do the conversion without too many extra hours as compared to just swapping out the existing batteries for another set of AGM, then maybe I'll that.

I am assuming your E1 has the Delta-Q IC1200. I think more recently they might have changed makers, but I'm not sure and I think yours is probably old enough. Mine is a 2020 model. It's easy enough to just look under the driver's front wheel well and see it in the center of the UTV.

The Delta-Q website looks like it has been updated with more lithium battery support than when I did the conversion, so that's good. Let me just give you links so it's coming from the official source:

https://support.delta-q.com/hc/en-us/articles/360016475772-Changing-Algorithms-on-IC-Series-Chargers

https://support.delta-q.com/hc/en-us/articles/14188856858893-Choosing-an-Algorithm-for-a-Lithium-Battery

https://support.delta-q.com/hc/en-us/articles/360015622651-Which-Algorithm-Charge-profile-should-I-use-for-my-battery

https://support.delta-q.com/hc/en-us/articles/360015622311-Download-Algorithms-for-IC-Series-Chargers

[gridlock]

Thank you!

This it?  I see it's a Delta, but don't see a model #.

[GNFO]

53 minutes ago, gridlock said:

Thank you!

This it?  I see it's a Delta, but don't see a model #.

Yep. That's it. They have pictures on their website, but that's what that is.

[gridlock]

Thanks.  It does look quite easy to upload a new algorithm onto the Delta charger.  I need to understand move about CANbus and how to set that up, but will research that.  I'm not sure I want to spend that much for something like the ReLion batteries, but there are some fairly reputable companies like LiTime that sell similar batteries for much less, but probably not at the same level as ReLion.

Thanks again for all the help!

P.S. I do wish I understood what that green wire is for!   I hate to have that just floating in there.

[GNFO]

42 minutes ago, gridlock said:

Thanks.  It does look quite easy to upload a new algorithm onto the Delta charger.  I need to understand move about CANbus and how to set that up, but will research that.  I'm not sure I want to spend that much for something like the ReLion batteries, but there are some fairly reputable companies like LiTime that sell similar batteries for much less, but probably not at the same level as ReLion.

Thanks again for all the help!

P.S. I do wish I understood what that green wire is for!   I hate to have that just floating in there.

The CANbus really isn't anything more than plugging in the communication cables the battery company should provide. It's nothing you have to set up - it's a feature of the batteries. Just need to research the specs of whatever battery you go with or even email them if necessary. 

I feel fairly certain that green wire is the charging interlock. For whatever reason it wasn't required on ours. Probably a country specific thing, like the "big red button" to disconnect the batteries that apparently the UK version has that mine doesn't in the US.

[gridlock]

Thanks.  Getting back to this.

One thing I'm wondering is weather to go with 4 or 6 48v batteries.  I don't think I'll necessarily need the range from 6 batteries, but thought once I'm in there...

[GNFO]

38 minutes ago, gridlock said:

Thanks.  Getting back to this.

One thing I'm wondering is weather to go with 4 or 6 48v batteries.  I don't think I'll necessarily need the range from 6 batteries, but thought once I'm in there...

I wondered about it too, but the nice thing about batteries that are already the GC2 form is that after a little bit of use, if you realize you need more capacity you can easily just add more in parallel later to the existing empty spots. It is recommended to stay with the same model though so the BMSs can talk to each other. How many is very much dependent on your usage. I use mine just for hauling firewood/log splitter/other landscape type work around my 6 acres.  It's pretty hilly so I definitely appreciate and need the full 400A draw the four batteries give me for hauling power, but I don't put much in the way of actual miles on mine.  Even with adding bar lights and a 48V 2500W inverter so I can use electric power tools, I've never gone below 75% in one day, and of course I can plug it in at night.

If you are the type to take it 10-20 miles out into the wilderness without the time or ability to recharge off of portable solar, or you have to go a number of days of moderate to heavy usage before you can recharge, then you probably want more batteries.

[gridlock]

OK, thanks.  My property is 17 acres, but I never got below 80% charge with the AGM batteries, so probably 4 Lithium batteries will be fine.  As you mentioned, I can always add more if I find 4 doesn't cut it.

One other question: Is it better to go with bluetooth or CAN wired option?  The wired option will need an external display to monitor levels, where the bluetooth version doesn't, but do the batteries communicate with each other through these interfaces?

[GNFO]

5 minutes ago, gridlock said:

OK, thanks.  My property is 17 acres, but I never got below 80% charge with the AGM batteries, so probably 4 Lithium batteries will be fine.  As you mentioned, I can always add more if I find 4 doesn't cut it.

One other question: Is it better to go with bluetooth or CAN wired option?  The wired option will need an external display to monitor levels, where the bluetooth version doesn't, but do the batteries communicate with each other through these interfaces?

Mine are CANbus so that's my experience. Undoubtedly bluetooth means there is one less thing to install, but then of course you have to rely on your phone to see the battery state. I personally like the dependability of a hard wire connection and a display that I don't need my phone for, but that's personal preference. The primary purpose for either connection is supposed to be BMS coordination between the batteries, and the readout is a perk. You don't have to connect a display, but it's nice to have.

[gridlock]

I decided to go with 4 LiTime CAN RS485 batteries along with the RS485 display, which I'll mount on the dash.  I agree about the reliability of the hard wired connection, and not needing to look at my phone for battery status.  I also have a landscape guy that uses the Sector, so it will be helpful having the display on the dash for him to monitor.  Now I just need to get some heavy gauge cable and connectors (I believe the posts are 8mm) to get everything connected.

Much appreciate all the help!

[GNFO]

That's great.  Good luck with the conversion.  You'll be much happier with the performance.

I believe @ScottKN used LiTime also and reprogrammed the charger with profile #233.  He talked about his conversion on (I think) the second page of that "Hisun Sector e1 Battery replacement: any tips?" thread.  He was later having some other problem with his UTV that he didn't think was related to the batteries, but I haven't seen anything since.

[EVSupport]

Green is definitely charge interlock. Gives a signal to the sevcon Red is the + from the charger, if its shorted that may well have damaged the charger. If there is no fuse on that end of the cable there is no other protection to the charger. Hopefully its internal protection will have worked, If it wasnt in use then the damage will be back to the main pack, those + leads to the pack will require replacement. As part of that I would suggest using a maxi fue the larger blades mean they do not get as hot when charging. DO NOT SOLDER. Only crimp, a soldered connection if hot will fall apart and can short, The most common fault like that is a battery screw being loose causing the lug to get hot and the solder melt. Always crimp.

[gridlock]

17 hours ago, EVSupport said:

Green is definitely charge interlock. Gives a signal to the sevcon Red is the + from the charger, if its shorted that may well have damaged the charger. If there is no fuse on that end of the cable there is no other protection to the charger. Hopefully its internal protection will have worked, If it wasnt in use then the damage will be back to the main pack, those + leads to the pack will require replacement. As part of that I would suggest using a maxi fue the larger blades mean they do not get as hot when charging. DO NOT SOLDER. Only crimp, a soldered connection if hot will fall apart and can short, The most common fault like that is a battery screw being loose causing the lug to get hot and the solder melt. Always crimp.

Thanks for the info.  I couldn't find info on the 'charge interlock' other than what GNFO mentioned above; should I assume that we don't have one in the U.S. and that green wire just floats and not connected to anything?

I did just receive the batteries, cable, and yes, crimp connectors!  I'll get everything in and connected next week, update the Delta algorithm, and hopefully everything will work and the charger is not damaged.  If it is, then have to get a replacement.

[gridlock]

I got all the batteries and supplies, removed the rest of the old batteries, cleaned every out (unbelievable amount of dirt, gravel, leaves, etc.!) and ready to start installing.

A few questions:

The LiTime batteries came with very little charge.  LiTime recommends charging each battery individually before connecting together.  The only 48v charger I have is the onboard Delta, so thought I'd connect one battery at a time and charge that way.  Any thoughts on this?

There are 4 loose wires and one loose connector going to the battery compartment (see photos).  The white and black are connected together and go to battery ground.  The red looked like (before it burned and cut) that it went to battery positive.  Am I assuming that these wires make up the DC charging current from the charger?

I have no idea where that 6 pin loose plastic connector goes to (see picture).  Can someone shed some light on that?

I noticed that there are a couple of open male connectors on the Sevcon (see picture).  Both yellow and red wires are connected to their respective terminals below them, but not connected together.  Is it possible that that floating green wire connects to one of those?  The female connector on the green wire is the right size for those terminals.

Thanks!

[GNFO]

Obviously I can only tell you what I see on mine, but so far I believe we have the same setup.  As discussed before, the green wire on mine is not connected to anything.  It has a plug connector on the end which seems to have burned up on yours, leaving just that red strain relief that I recognize. In fact, mine has a tag on it that says "Do not connect green wire to ground or battery negative - for interlock use only". The red wire is connected to the positive terminal on the 48V battery at the end of the parallel set, the connector with the black and white wires is connected to the negative terminal on the 48V battery at the other end of the parallel set.  I have the same open terminals below the yellow and red wire connections (although my yellow and red are reverse from yours - maybe it doesn't matter.)  Finally, I have the same loose six pin connector you show. It's just zip tied to the frame with no connection. I'm guessing that it's like the green wire - for use in a configuration different than ours or maybe even unneeded because Hisun used a common wire harness.

My batteries came with about 60% charge and with the CANbus connections supposedly letting the BMSs talk to each other, the manufacturer didn't say anything about charging individually first. I think using the Delta Q to individually charge the batteries should be fine though; just remember to change the charging profile first. It's also going to be a bit of a pain because of where the cables from the Sevcon are, but that's probably a good idea.

[gridlock]

Thanks!  I already updated the profile, and will connect one battery and see if charges.

[gridlock]

Updated profile, burned wire replaced, first battery connected, CAN port connected to digital LCD screen; everything looks good so far.  Glad that onboard charger didn't appear to burn out due to whatever caused the burned wire.

[GNFO]

Something to file in the back of your mind if it comes up, BuggyBoy (who's in Australia and used a different battery maker) ran into some problems with his four batteries becoming unbalanced and throwing some temporary charging errors because he was exceeding the max amp output of the batteries for too long (I think he has a pretty long hill). He laid out the details recently on one of the other battery threads here.

Along with not being many options at the time, one of the reasons I went with my battery maker despite the cost was that each battery was capable of 100A continuous output to match the max motor draw. I believe your LiTime batteries have a max continuous output of 60A, but are rated to put out up to 120A for up to 5 seconds and up to 300A for up to 1 second. So with an (on paper) max continuous discharge of 240A (4 x 60A) you could potentially overdraw on the batteries if you have a steep, long hill.  Depending on your use and however much of a safety margin their engineers designed in you might be fine, but just keep in mind you might have to add as many as 3 more batteries to hit a max continuous output of 400A.  The upside would be that if you do have to do that, you'll have that much more total capacity (range).

Just wanted you to know.

[gridlock]

3 minutes ago, GNFO said:

Something to file in the back of your mind if it comes up, BuggyBoy (who's in Australia and used a different battery maker) ran into some problems with his four batteries becoming unbalanced and throwing some temporary charging errors because he was exceeding the max amp output of the batteries for too long (I think he has a pretty long hill). He laid out the details recently on one of the other battery threads here.

Along with not being many options at the time, one of the reasons I went with my battery maker despite the cost was that each battery was capable of 100A continuous output to match the max motor draw. I believe your LiTime batteries have a max continuous output of 60A, but are rated to put out up to 120A for up to 5 seconds and up to 300A for up to 1 second. So with an (on paper) max continuous discharge of 240A (4 x 60A) you could potentially overdraw on the batteries if you have a steep, long hill.  Depending on your use and however much of a safety margin their engineers designed in you might be fine, but just keep in mind you might have to add as many as 3 more batteries to hit a max continuous output of 400A.  The upside would be that if you do have to do that, you'll have that much more total capacity (range).

Just wanted you to know.

Thanks for that info!  In my limited testing so far, I did go up a fairly steep hill that took about 20 seconds from bottom to top (which was a few seconds faster than with the AGM batteries), and did not have any errors in that case.  The original onboard current gauge was only showing a 30-35 amp draw, but not sure if that gauge is accurate with the lithium batteries.  The LiTime gauge does show amp draw, but it was very small and hard to see as I was climbing the hill; I'll try that again one day.  Most of the the use for the cart is on my property, which has some mild, but not steep hills, so hopefully this will not be a problem!  I hope not, as I would rather not spend the additional $ on more batteries, but that will be be determined.

[GNFO]

51 minutes ago, gridlock said:

Thanks for that info!  In my limited testing so far, I did go up a fairly steep hill that took about 20 seconds from bottom to top (which was a few seconds faster than with the AGM batteries), and did not have any errors in that case.  The original onboard current gauge was only showing a 30-35 amp draw, but not sure if that gauge is accurate with the lithium batteries.  The LiTime gauge does show amp draw, but it was very small and hard to see as I was climbing the hill; I'll try that again one day.  Most of the the use for the cart is on my property, which has some mild, but not steep hills, so hopefully this will not be a problem!  I hope not, as I would rather not spend the additional $ on more batteries, but that will be be determined.

For me the Hisun dashboard seems accurate when it works, but sometimes it seems like it doesn't show anything at all, including speed. Probably not related to the batteries as much as a finicky dash display control board. I haven't bothered troubleshooting since the actual operation of the UTV is always fine. 

When you say 30-35A draw displayed, do you mean the needle is just barely moving up? Because the dial itself is of course "x10A" so the number "30" is actually 300. Going up hills I find the draw is usually 200-300A, so if the draw shown really was indicating only 30 that seems low.

[gridlock]

24 minutes ago, GNFO said:

For me the Hisun dashboard seems accurate when it works, but sometimes it seems like it doesn't show anything at all, including speed. Probably not related to the batteries as much as a finicky dash display control board. I haven't bothered troubleshooting since the actual operation of the UTV is always fine. 

When you say 30-35A draw displayed, do you mean the needle is just barely moving up? Because the dial itself is of course "x10A" so the number "30" is actually 300. Going up hills I find the draw is usually 200-300A, so if the draw shown really was indicating only 30 that seems low.

Funny, I never realized that the actual values are a 10x factor!  Yes, it was reading around 300 amps; wow, that's a lot of current!  Well, despite it showing 300a for 20 seconds or so, there were no errors.  Aside from the difference in batteries, I'm wondering what gauge wire BuggyBoy used, as that can also be current limiting, but not sure if that would have contributed to triggering an error.

[GNFO]

He seemed to think the cables were fine.  I think he has a particularly long hill he always has to use and he was reaching max on the motor output. It's in this thread 

Posts #52, 54, and 61 lay out his problem and troubleshooting. Worth coming back to if you have problems.  I believe his Allion GC2 batteries have a listed max continuous output of 60A, 65A for 30 seconds, and 100A for 10 seconds. It probably comes down to variances from battery to battery and how good the BMS is at keeping discharges equal between all of them.

[gridlock]

4 hours ago, GNFO said:

He seemed to think the cables were fine.  I think he has a particularly long hill he always has to use and he was reaching max on the motor output. It's in this thread 

Posts #52, 54, and 61 lay out his problem and troubleshooting. Worth coming back to if you have problems.  I believe his Allion GC2 batteries have a listed max continuous output of 60A, 65A for 30 seconds, and 100A for 10 seconds. It probably comes down to variances from battery to battery and how good the BMS is at keeping discharges equal between all of them.

OK, good to know if I have any issues... thanks!