T2 STARTER??

[charlie]

Hey guys so I was haveing some starting issues with my T2 over trhe weekend. Turn the Key and nothing with starting. I thought it was the neutral switch so I adjusted that a bit and jiggled the wires it seemed to be ok and then start. However yestarday when I was unloading it off my trailer not start again!! Turn the key full power and when I went to crank it seemed like the starter was just clicking like in a car. I have about 400 miles on my trooper and I always am taking care of it I am an auto tech by trade. Have you guys had any starter issues and Is there a cross reference number for a starter and nutral switch or do I need to get those from Joyner or silverbullets??? thanx

[Kinarfi]

Hey guys so I was haveing some starting issues with my T2 over trhe weekend. Turn the Key and nothing with starting. I thought it was the neutral switch so I adjusted that a bit and jiggled the wires it seemed to be ok and then start. However yestarday when I was unloading it off my trailer not start again!! Turn the key full power and when I went to crank it seemed like the starter was just clicking like in a car. I have about 400 miles on my trooper and I always am taking care of it I am an auto tech by trade. Have you guys had any starter issues and Is there a cross reference number for a starter and nutral switch or do I need to get those from Joyner or silverbullets??? thanx

Had that problem, put an interposing relay in. That is take a small relay, (10 to 20 amp), and pull the wire that activates the solenoid and use it to activate the relay. Then use some #14 wire that goes from the battery side of the starter to the relay and then to the solenoid where the starter wire was. The problem seems to be that the wire used to activate the solenoid is too small and too long to supply enough current to get the solenoid to slam in hard enough to make good contact for the starter motor. I haven't had a problems with this since I added the relay and it used to happen all the time, I got to a point that I always stopped on a hill.

Kinarfi

[charlie]

Had that problem, put an interposing relay in. That is take a small relay, (10 to 20 amp), and pull the wire that activates the solenoid and use it to activate the relay. Then use some #14 wire that goes from the battery side of the starter to the relay and then to the solenoid where the starter wire was. The problem seems to be that the wire used to activate the solenoid is too small and too long to supply enough current to get the solenoid to slam in hard enough to make good contact for the starter motor. I haven't had a problems with this since I added the relay and it used to happen all the time, I got to a point that I always stopped on a hill.

Kinarfi

ok I understand what your saying but why did it all of a sudden???. Were did you mount the relay and couldnt you just run a thicker wire like its done now is the relay necsary?? so basically put a small relay in between the battery and solenoid and replace the wire with a thicker wire I dont mean to sound like a dummy just wanna be clear. Thanx

[rocmoc]

Electrical connectors are really poor quality and don't take water & mud well in/on the Joyner. Check connectors & grounds. I am in the Sonoran Desert of AZ with little moisture and have nearly zero electrical issues. I really believe the Joyner doesn't do well with moisture. JMHO!

rocmoc n AZ

[charlie]

Electrical connectors are really poor quality and don't take water & mud well in/on the Joyner. Check connectors & grounds. I am in the Sonoran Desert of AZ with little moisture and have nearly zero electrical issues. I really believe the Joyner doesn't do well with moisture. JMHO!

rocmoc n AZ

thanx I will look into that is there a cross reference for a starter or does it have to come from joyner

[Kinarfi]

thanx I will look into that is there a cross reference for a starter or does it have to come from joyner

I'm sure replacing all the wiring with a heavier wire would help, maybe even eliminate the problem, but the relay was just easier, The relay I used was just a cheap relay I had on hand, I siliconed it to a piece of aluminum and secured it with a tyrap. I also soldered the a wire to each terminal for easy connection and covered all that with more silicone for corrosion protection and electrical insulation. When I rebuilt my engine, I took a bunch of photo before I started undoing every thing and here's a few photos of what I did. , remember, it's glued to the aluminum bar.

Kinarfi

[charlie]

I'm sure replacing all the wiring with a heavier wire would help, maybe even eliminate the problem, but the relay was just easier, The relay I used was just a cheap relay I had on hand, I siliconed it to a piece of aluminum and secured it with a tyrap. I also soldered the a wire to each terminal for easy connection and covered all that with more silicone for corrosion protection and electrical insulation. When I rebuilt my engine, I took a bunch of photo before I started undoing every thing and here's a few photos of what I did. , remember, it's glued to the aluminum bar.

Kinarfi

thanx for your help if you dont mind me asdking why did you rebuild the motor

[Kinarfi]

thanx for your help if you dont mind me asdking why did you rebuild the motor

wouldn't start when cold because compression was so low because the stock air filter is junk, replace with k&n, and in a bad place, snorkel your trooper to get clean air, and I got a fine dust in the engine that wore down my rings. Look at the rest of the photos in that album.

Kinarfi

[charlie]

thanx for your help if you dont mind me asdking why did you rebuild the motor

SoI tried the relay thing with the starter. Did you use a 2 post relay?? I tried with a 4 post relay oneside two battery one to the orginal solenoid wire ground and then a thicker wire to the starter solnoid it was a 30amp relay and when I cycled the key nothing happend fans and fulel pump didnt even cycle. So i am assuming maybe the 30 amp relay is to big or I need a simple 2 post relay any ideas would be great. I did run a wire off the blue orginal solenoid wire I shortened the wire by a foot traced it back in the harness pretty far does that wire feed directlt off of the ECM????? This fix kinda works if I hold the key for a secound it does start. well any thoughts or ideas would be great thanx charle

[bruhaw]

Well it looks like I am having the same intermittant starting problems as others have had. I did have some problems last year and I changed out the ignition switch and thought I had solved it but it looks like I didn't. In the past it seemed like when it was just cold it would not start but now it doesn't matter what the air temp outside is. I pulled the starter today and had it tested and it comes out testing fine. I did notice the bendix was a little worn and looks like it might not be engaging all the way. Flywheel teeth are completely fine. When the problem happens it just doesn't seem to kick the bendix out at all. I ended up having some more problems because I hooked up a ground to the power side of the starter and forgot one wire but with some help from Ricksrb ended up figuring it all out and put it back together. Without one of the leads that goes to the starter the fan and fuel pump will not cycle. I didn't have that hooked up when I first put everything back together and I thought I had done some damage because I had a quick spark when i turned on the isolator due to having the ground hooked up to the power lead on the starter. Figured out the ground wire and noticed i forgot one of the leads and once I had it all together it cycled correctly and then started. But I am worried about having the starting problems again so I was wondering Kinarfi and Charlie if you did use a 2 post relay. I didn't see a reply from Kinarfi and didn't see a post back on whether or not you got it working correctly Charlie. So any help on solving this would be appreciated. I don't think it is a starter problem at this point but rather what you have said in terms of the wiring issue. If I understand correctly you would take the solenoid wire off the starter and use that wire on one leg of the relay. Then you would run a jumper wire from the battery side of the starter to the relay and then a wire from the relay back to the solenoid leg of the starter. So three wires to the relay but are you connecting the jumper wire and solenoid wire to the same leg of the relay and thus using a 2 post relay? Thanks again Rick for the assistance today!

[Kinarfi]

I will try to remember to take some photos tomorrow, but you only need a 12 v, single pole relay, one of the relay contacts goes to the battery, either from the battery terminal on the starter or at the master switch. The other relay contact goes to the solenoid. I used #12 wire from the battery to the relay and from the relay to the solenoid. The wire that was on the solenoid goes to one side of the relay coil and the other side of the coil goes to chassis ground, preferably on the engine. After doing this, I have not had an engagement failure of the starter solenoid, about a year or so now.

Kinarfi

[Guest Lenny]

Ok, lets see if we can make this easy. Just get a standard aproximately 1" cube 4 terminal automotive relay, they are real cheap and you can get it at any automotive parts store. The wire from the Troopers stock relay that goes to the starter should go to terminal 85 of the new relay. The terminals are numbered on the relay. Terminal 86 should go to ground. Run a heavy wire, 12 or 14 gauge from the battery to terminal 87 on the new relay and the same gage wire from terminal 30 to the starter solenoid. You can mount the relay about any place youb want.

Lenny

[bruhaw]

Kinarfi. Thanks for the reply. Pictures would definitely help. It sounds like there are four terminals. Two are for the relay coils. One is the old wire going to the solenoid the other being a ground wire that will need to be made up. Then on the other two terminals there will be the battery power, either off the starter or direct from battery and then the other will be a new #12 wire going from the relay terminal to the solenoid. So, 4 wires in all - right? Pictures or a schematic would be ideal. Appreciate the help.

[bruhaw]

Just saw your reply Lenny. That was simple as I had just looked at a Bosch relay online so I have an idea of what you were talking about already. Now it is just getting the relay and wiring it up. Kinarfi - I should be good now and thanks for the help again. You too Lenny. Hopeful this will solve my intermittant problem.

[Guest Lenny]

Kinarfi. Thanks for the reply. Pictures would definitely help. It sounds like there are four terminals. Two are for the relay coils. One is the old wire going to the solenoid the other being a ground wire that will need to be made up. Then on the other two terminals there will be the battery power, either off the starter or direct from battery and then the other will be a new #12 wire going from the relay terminal to the solenoid. So, 4 wires in all - right? Pictures or a schematic would be ideal. Appreciate the help.

Battery +12v to --------------------------terminal 87 of relay #12 wire

Old wire going to -----------------------terminal 85 of relay #16 wire if extention is needed

Wire from engine ground to ----------terminal 86 of relay #16 wire

wire from terminal 30 of realy to -------starter solenoid # 12 wire

do not use 87a

Lenny Edit by Kinarfi

[bruhaw]

Got it. Thanks Lenny!

[Kinarfi]

One more little comment, when you hook your wires to the relay, if you have a soldering iron, solder the wires to the relay rather than using the slide on terminals which have created so many problems in other areas, and you don't really need the #12s for the coil, #16 is ample but #12 is definitely recommended for the contacts.

Kinarfi

Looked at how I did mine and # 16 wire seems adequate, 12 is probably a pain use, sorry if you already took my advice. see post #38

Kinarfi

[bruhaw]

Will do.

[ricksrb]

I copied and posted Lennys posts here regarding the relay replacement under the "TECHNICAL ARTICLES" topic for easy reference in the future.

and I modified that one also.

http://www.utvboard.com/topic/2258-technical-articles-in-this-forum/page__view__findpost__p__13295

[Kinarfi]

http://www.utvboard....dpost__p__13292

http://www.utvboard.com/topic/2258-technical-articles-in-this-forum/page__view__findpost__p__13295

[ricksrb]

http://www.utvboard....dpost__p__13292

http://www.utvboard....dpost__p__13295

Thank you kinarfi.

[bruhaw]

Okay. Did everything that was explained and it all went well. Wired up relay just as explained above and all is correct. 12 volt coming into relay and 12 volt going to starter. Wired original solenoid wire to relay and grounded. No power to solenoid wire coming out of relay when I turn the key to start. All it does is click. Took off front hood to see what was clicking and really can't seem to tell where it is coming from but it just clicks up front and not at the solenoid. Is there a switch that I am missing up there that could be the problem? What am I missing here?

[bruhaw]

Well I found the answer to the clicking as it is the new power steering control module that is clicking on and off as I turn the key all the way to start. So, maybe I am not missing anything up front. Still no clicking in the back from the starter. Tempted to pull it again and see what is happening. A number of months ago that is all I did and when I had it just sitting there it would kick out. Then I put back in and it started. Don't know why but it did. Could there be a short somewhere between the old solenoid wire? Very hard to trace in the loom that is for sure. Any thoughts on how to test what is happening?

[bruhaw]

One final thing that I elimated is that there is 12 volts coming out of the starter switch when the key is turn all the way in the starting position so power is getting out of the switch but how far back I do not know. At least that elimates the switch which already had been replaced but wanted to make sure.

[bruhaw]

If I keep at it I might figure it out. I know that the starter will engage as I jumpered from the solenoid to the battery terminal on the starter post and it will kick it over. Narrowing it down some at least. Almost done for the night so I don't think I will figure it out now.

[charlie]

well thats a lot to read I have already done the relay thing?! and I know my ignition switch is good still got power at the starter and the relay and when I hit the switch I got no stat but my relay clicks. had to pop the clutch to get it started the last time in woods I believe my starter is done but I am going to recheck it all again looks like I will need a starter silverbullets has them but they say they dont sell many hope this helps anyone or if anyone has anything to say let me know

charlie

[Guest Lenny]

Run 12v directly from the batterty terminal 85 on the relay. It should activate and run the starter. If it doesn't,you have it wired wrong or the relay is bad. If that works, then bypass the Troopers wire coming from the ignition switch 12v start signal termminal and go directly to terminal 85 on the new relay with a new wire. Think of it this way.

12v to the ignition switch

with ignition switch yurned to start, you should get 12v to the relay terminal 85

when relay gets 12v on terminal 85, you should get 12v at the starter solenoid terminal.

It is possible that the original relay that went directly to the starter before is bad and thus would not be activating the new relay by providing 12v to terminal 85.

Lenny

[bruhaw]

Thanks for the help Lenny - I really think there is something wrong with the wire from the ignition switch back. I have 12 volts coming out but when I turn the key I get nothing at terminal 85 or at the starter solenoid lead on the starter itself which makes sense as if there is nothing from terminal 85 I won't have anything going back to the starter. I even hooked up the solenoid wire back directly last night and still nothing. Does the wire from the ignition switch go directly to the solenoid or does it go somewhere prior to getting to the starter solenoid. I don't know about the original relay, didn't know I had one. I almost took a wire and went directly from the ignition switch wire back to terminal 85 or even to the starter solenoid itself but didn't as I wanted to make sure I am ok with doing that and not going to short something out. The relay is brand new so that is not the problem. I double checked the wiring with your instructions and others so it is correct.

[bruhaw]

I went ahead and used the new wire going to the starter solenoid and disconnected from the relay and went straight to 12 volt power and it turns over. So, it seems like the original wire going to the solenoid could be the problem. Now the question is how I run a new wire and where it goes. Tracing down the solenoid wire would take a good deal of time for sure.

[Guest Lenny]

One of the relays behind the seat is for the starter. Can't tell you which one any more as mine is all changed around, Kinarfi can probably tell you which one is. If you haven't checked the original relay, that's preobably the trouble. Once you find the original relay, you can unplug it and tap onto either the 85 or 86 terminal wire behind the relay and check for continuity to the starter wire on the back of the ignition switch. If the wire is good, you can just re-route it to the new relay terminal 85 or 86 and you will be bypassing the old relay which is probably bad.

Lenny