Starting

[T-boss 410]

OK folks, I tested the wires at the starter, and I am getting 11.5 v. So I am assuming that the solenoid is good? Disassembled the starter, and cleaned and inspected the brushes. They look good to me. I sprayed the whole thing with electric cleaner, put a bit of oil on the shaft at both ends, and reassembled it. Tested it to be sure it was functional, and that's where I stand now. 

Any ideas? This has me a lot confused. 

Thanks 

[T-boss 410]

Anyone?

Edited January 5, 2021 by T-boss 410
Double post

[kenfain]

Sometimes a good cleaning will work wonders. But I have doubts about this being a done deal. 

But on the bright side, I think you're narrowing down the problem. So that's a good thing. 

Now about that 11.5v. That's a bit low. And a continuous supply of 11.5v will overwork a starter. That in itself could easily cause the whole slow cranking issue. And will kill a starter in the long run. 

I'd check the resistance between the positive battery terminal, and the starter terminal. Unhook the battery first, and clean the terminals.

Then check resistance. If the battery is around 12.5, and you're losing a volt. Then my guess is, you're looking at either a bad cable, or a bad solenoid. They'd have to be checked individually. 

[T-boss 410]

So there shouldn't be any loss of voltage from the battery to the solenoid, or from the solenoid to the starter?

[kenfain]

No there shouldn't be any drop. But nothing's perfect, so there might be a tenth of a volt at most. Say 12.5 at the battery, to 12.4 at the starter. Anything over 12.1 or so is good enough to pass. But would need checking, and would need  dealing with. Anything over 12.3 could be overlooked for now. But remember that there's significant voltage drop when the starter is under load. And it's a 12v motor. So it's not pretty long term for it to drop below 12v at any time during the starting cycle. 

[T-boss 410]

So what numbers do I expect when testing the resistance? The lower the better? What is unacceptable?

Thanks for the help!

[kenfain]

Less is better, and it shouldn't be hardly anything. Voltage under load would amplify anything there is. So we're really shooting for no resistance at all at zero load.

Unfortunately I'm not electrically inclined. So I look for resistance, and if I find any. I isolate it and replace the offender. My guess is that it won't be that easy. It never is for me. But if it turns out to be easily isolated. Just replace that, and you're probably done. 

But there's really only 4 parts involved, because the ignition wiring probably isn't the culprit. But I don't rule out anything. 

That really just leaves the 2 positive cables. One on either side of the solenoid. The solenoid itself. And the ignition switch. I'd expose that solenoid, and test the cables, and solenoid first. Then the switch last, because it's harder to get to. If it goes that far, maybe you can find a way to check it without removing it. 

[Travis]

2 hours ago, T-boss 410 said:

OK folks, I tested the wires at the starter, and I am getting 11.5 v. So I am assuming that the solenoid is good? Disassembled the starter, and cleaned and inspected the brushes. They look good to me. I sprayed the whole thing with electric cleaner, put a bit of oil on the shaft at both ends, and reassembled it. Tested it to be sure it was functional, and that's where I stand now. 

Any ideas? This has me a lot confused. 

Thanks 

Kenfain summed it all up very well, here are my 2 cents that worth about 1 cent.

What is the battery voltage at the battery, Positive and negative posts? it should be the same or within 1 or 2 tenths of a volt  the STARTER SIDE of the solenoid, or the same. if you have good voltage at the battery, and lower voltage down stream of the solenoid, somethings wacky in the solenoid most likely.

[T-boss 410]

Doesn't the ignition switch just trigger the solenoid?

[Travis]

2 minutes ago, T-boss 410 said:

Doesn't the ignition switch just trigger the solenoid?

as far as i know, should just be a trigger wire,  should read the same or lightly less than the battery.

probably goes through a relay or safety switch.

[T-boss 410]

Well,  that switch is a real bear to get to. At this point I am hoping for a battery cable or the solenoid. 

[T-boss 410]

Well, you have to depress the brake pedal to start it. I assume that is the safety switch you're talking about. 

[Travis]

probably so

[T-boss 410]

Am I correct in assuming that it is most likely a battery cable or the solenoid?

[kenfain]

32 minutes ago, T-boss 410 said:

Doesn't the ignition switch just trigger the solenoid?

As Travis pointed out, it definitely goes through at least one safety switch. And the relay also. But usually it's the big components like the solenoid, or the cables that would cause the loss of a volt. Although it could easily be the ignition switch. Or the wiring, or relay. With electrical you never know. 

That's why I suggest that you try the big components first. Next you'd have to chase the path that the current takes. Until you find the problem. 

When you energize that circuit, by turning the key. It should all be at battery voltage. Or extremely close to it. 

[T-boss 410]

I appreciate the help. I'll be checking it out tomorrow!

[T-boss 410]

OK, here's what I am getting on the short cable from the battery to the solenoid: 1.8 ohms. The cable from the solenoid to the starter is 1.1 ohms. 

What does that mean for me?

[Travis]

is there also a drop in voltage?

Ohms mean nothing to me unless i have a spec sheet to look at.

but if that solenoid is good i would think the drop would be less than that.

[T-boss 410]

Sorry, I am just checking for resistance. But yes, there is a loss of about 1 volt from the solenoid to the starter. The battery is at 12.5v, and at the starter it's 11.5v.

[Travis]

i don't think you have much to lose by replacing the solenoid.

if you cant find the OEM solenoid you can always get a riding mower solenoid and do it that way.

[T-boss 410]

So you don't see anything wrong with the resistance in the cables?

[Travis]

I've never had an issue with battery cables where i needed to test their resistance, so i don't know if an issue with the solenoid would cause a difference in resistance ..

are you able to get test leads to the solenoid posts?

[T-boss 410]

Sure am. What do you want me to do?

[T-boss 410]

If I put the battery back in the UTV, I won't have access to the solenoid. It's located right behind the battery. 

[kenfain]

Anything more than an ohm is probably not good. And since it's a lot of trouble to get to. I'd probably take it apart, and give each item a closer look. Or just replace it all. None of those parts are particularly expensive. 

[T-boss 410]

I was going to replace the solenoid, and as far as the cable from the battery to the solenoid, i can make one myself. However, the cable from the solenoid to the starter runs through the frame in a sheath, and I don't think it's gonna budge in that sheath very easily. 

[T-boss 410]

Well, replaced the solenoid, reinstalled the starter, and it is free wheeling. I don't understand. It was good when I pulled it, but now it's like the starter clutch is bad. I tried to turn it with a screwdriver, and it only turns one way. 

WTF am I doing wrong (besides owning a Massimo)? I just thought I would say that before Joe does, lol!

[kenfain]

That could be caused by several things. I'd put the old solenoid back on it, and see how it does. 

That's the easiest choice, because otherwise it's likely the starter. Or whatever passes for a bendix in the starter you have. 

Make sure your battery has a full charge. On rare occasions I've had car starters do that when the battery was weak. Of course there were probably other factors involved too.

[T-boss 410]

With these, there's no bendix. it's a clutch type. it basically engages a gear that will only turn one way. I can access the gear, which is only turning one way. I can't get in there too close. Too much between me and the clutch case. From what I gather, it's a starter and magneto sort of setup.

[kenfain]

Yeah that's about what I'd expect. If putting the old solenoid on it doesn't cause a change. You might have to take the starter apart.

Assuming that you have good voltage at the starter. I'd say that your problem is between these two things.