Power Steering (Hydraulic)?

[ksimpsy]

Hey, has anybody done anything in building a power steering kit yet? i was looking around and figured a gear box style unit would be the easiest. i figured one from an older Ford Ranger or S10 would work and be easy to find at a wrecker. if you just came off the end of the Pittman arm with ball socket type ends out to each tie rod mount on the hub it would be simple and tough. I'm not sure if it would have enough travel to turn tight enough but you could change that with the length of the Pittman arm. the pump from the same vehicle would work as well because you can get them with the reservoir built in. the trick for mounting it and making the belt run in the proper direction would be a challenge but should be doable. anything is with a welder and a torch right? i would appreciate any ideas or somebody to tell me it just plain wont work. I have no idea I'm just tired of turning these tracks.

Thanks Kevin

[Guest Lenny]

What a welder and torch won't fix, a big chisel and mallot will and don't forget about vise-grips. If your a good mechanic you allready know that to get the bolts and nuts loose that you messed up earlier because of using vise-grips can only be done with vise-grips.

Running the pump the correct direction could maybe be done by running a groove belt over the existing extra groove pully on the engine and twisting it a full 180 degrees to the pump. If the distance were right this has some merit. I never tried this and would have to put a belt on with the two pullys and make a judgment call as to if it might work without scraping on itself. Lawn mowers twist v-belts 90 degrees all the time. Maybe a little Google research would give some light on this concept. You also may have the opotion to turn the pump facing the opposit direction if there is room. Just some thoughts to ponder.

Lenny

[brostar]

Joyner has just released this:

http://www.thunderinc.com/2009_powersteering_kit_retail.pdf

[ksimpsy]

That's cool and all but the problem is that I am cheap and $1000 is $1200 Canadian and then the shipping will be another $150 ish. wayyy too much moola for me. And Lenny i also thought about a v belt and even thought of a hex belt and running off the backside of the belt. i have moved my rad up to my rack so now i have lots of room underneath so room shouldn't be an issue.

Thanks

[Guest Lenny]

There is a seller on Ebay that has one for the same money. My only problen is that if everything I do to my trooper like new suspension, new tire setup for sanddunes, new offroad tire setup more like rocmoc's and now power steering cost $1000 at a wack, I'm gonna be broke before I get her done.

Lenny

[rocmoc]

Agree, that is too much to pay for power steering. We all will come up with a less expensive solution. Great minds working here!

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[Guest Lenny]

Looked on Ggoogle for reversing belts a little bit, Didn't find an answer but did find interesting twisted belts. You might get a kick out of taking a look, I find this kind of stuff real fun. Only look if you don't have something else to do. It's not real useful to what were doing.

http://mathssquad.questacon.edu.au/mobius_strip.html

Lenny

[brostar]

ksimpsym, Lenny and rocmoc from now on I'm going to put you guys under the same tag. 100% full of s*** a* answers. That's smart as answers not swear words. Your all total correct, nothing new. ksimpsym, I especially know where your coming from. Four months ago USD$1,000 = NZD$800, now USD$1'000 = NZD$500. I tell you what, that really hurts. Funny thing is, I can still buy a turbo set-up for the Trooper here for NZD$1800 which is only USD$900 as opposed to what is being advertised in the States at USD$2700 which is NZD$5400. What the hell is with that?

Cheers Mike

[rocmoc]

The simple/KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) thing to do is replace the factory steering wheel with a larger dia. steering wheel. Beyond that, I have a buddy with a high HP sandrail. He runs a small/tiny power steering unit the size of a box of Cracker Jacks that mounts inline with the steering shaft about a foot from the steering wheel. You still have to have the existing rack in place. Next time I see him I will get info & price. Also looking at Golf Cart electric units & ATV electric units but concerned if they would be durable enough given our size & weight. The Golf Cart & ATV units could be found used. My goal is around the $200 range.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[ksimpsy]

The simple/KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) thing to do is replace the factory steering wheel with a larger dia. steering wheel. Beyond that, I have a buddy with a high HP sandrail. He runs a small/tiny power steering unit the size of a box of Cracker Jacks that mounts inline with the steering shaft about a foot from the steering wheel. You still have to have the existing rack in place. Next time I see him I will get info & price. Also looking at Golf Cart electric units & ATV electric units but concerned if they would be durable enough given our size & weight. The Golf Cart & ATV units could be found used. My goal is around the $200 range.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

One of the reasons that I want to do a complete new system is to get rid of the factory rack. it has way too much play and is sorta scary. also with my tracks i need to have zero toe in and zero camber. with all the steering play it is extremely difficult to get zero toe. as for the electric over steering I to would be concerned if it would put out enough to turn the thing especially mine. I'm not saying it wont work for a unit with tires don't get me wrong there but I'm really interested in a overkill hydraulic system. call me old fashioned but when i do something I like it to be ridiculously overkill. The way I'm thinking is that this should only run around $300 or cheaper if i can get a good deal on the power steering units from the wreckers. i found that online i could get the steering gear and pump new for under $200 but of course i would need to get the pulleys and Pittman arm and I'm sure a bunch more. that's why i want to go to the wreckers.

thanks, Kevin

[rocmoc]

Share more why you need zero toe. Zero toe or positive toe is normal for experienced black top racers. In the dirt, a little neg toe helps to stabilize the steering. Steering box does not have anything to do with camber. Bumper steer yes but that is a function of location/alignment of the steering rack with the pivot points to the spindle.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[ksimpsy]

Share more why you need zero toe. Zero toe or positive toe is normal for experienced black top racers. In the dirt, a little neg toe helps to stabilize the steering. Steering box does not have anything to do with camber. Bumper steer yes but that is a function of location/alignment of the steering rack with the pivot points to the spindle.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

Zero toe is for track wear i don't want to needlessly scrub off my tracks. when you have a footprint that big, toe in or out will make for extra wear. i know camber is adjusted through the hiem joints on the a-arms i just mentioned it in passing. i need the tracks to sit level for the same reason. i have noticed the inside of the back tracks are wearing a fair bit more than the outside because of camber, too bad it isn't adjustable. so I'm not worried about proper bump steer or toe or camber because i just piss around in the mud and snow i cant do much racing wish i could though.

[rocmoc]

Are you running on a lot of hard surfaces?

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[ksimpsy]

Are you running on a lot of hard surfaces?

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

Yah i usually end up going down gravel roads or hard trails for a few miles to get to the muskeg. i wish i had sand dunes to play in up here that seems like a blast to me.

[ksimpsy]

figured out the pump problem except to do it will cost more than my budget will allow but i will try to find one cheaper. it is an electric pump that will be easy to install and wont rob any power.

its on ebay

electric pump on ebay

well back to searching

[rocmoc]

Interesting, has a lot of possibilities. You can mount up front in all that space we have up there. BUT did you notice the location of the seller, Tel-Aviv, Israel. He says a lot of the new cars are running a electric pump so how about the local wrecking yard.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[Guest Lenny]

Copied this off the internet:

.....One car that does use an electric power steering pump is the second generation Toyota MR2. These cars utilize a power steering pump that consists of a 12 volt motor and hydraulic pump head in one self-contained unit.....

http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/photos/pg9pics/pspump1.jpg

http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/photos/pg9pics/pspump2.jpg

http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/photos/pg9pics/pspump3.jpg

...... Also in the power steering system is a small reservoir which holds about a pint of fluid. Another member of AustinEV was kind enough to donate a toyota power steering reservoir to me (it was from a Celica).....

http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/photos/pg9pics/reservoir1.jpg

.....The MR2 pump head runs off of the 12 volt system. However, it is no small load to the electrical system as it can pull up to 75-80 amps @ 12 volts when the steering wheel is turned close to a stop. It of course pulls less power when the wheel is centered because mechanical load on the pump is reduced. To handle the switching of this load I had to use a heavy duty relay. The relay I ended up using is a 75 amp power relay made by Bosch. this relay is triggered by the ignition switch, so the pump runs anytime the Jeep is on. Also, I used an 80 amp, automatically-resetting circuit breaker as the means of circuit protection for the pump......

http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/photos/pg14p...s/breakers1.jpg

http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/photos/pg20pics/e10.png

......As a last note, the MR2 Power steering pump has an extra four-wire wiring harness coming out of it. This harness originally connected to a computer on the MR2 which varied the speed (through Pulse Width Modulation) of the pump in relation to the vehicle speed. This makes sense because the pump really never needs to run at full speed while the vehicle is moving since once the tires are rolling, less force is required to steer. At this time I haven't connected these wires to anything, but in the future I plan to make a PWM controller circuit for the pump..... (MAYBE KINARFI CAN HELP WITH A CONTROLLER)

kinarfi, you might like to look at http://www.automotivedesignline.com/howto/165600237 It's a little teco but you probably can follow it ok.

Another site all may like to look at. http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Technical/eps.htm

http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_PowerSteering.html

There is some education here. Power use is a concern.

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

figured out the pump problem except to do it will cost more than my budget will allow but i will try to find one cheaper. it is an electric pump that will be easy to install and wont rob any power.

its on ebay

electric pump on ebay

well back to searching

Watched video, then watch associated video about electric power steering, Now that IS interesting to me.

kinarfi

[ksimpsy]

I think im giving up on the electric way. the draw seems to be quite a bit and the fact that you should have a computer to control it (properly) is just one more thing to screw up (especially in mud and snow and rivers etc). regardless i have spent all morning searching all of Alberta and cant find one. my local wrecker said he has a small pump off an import i can have for $20 now that is talking my language! I'm not saying that the electric pump should be given up on but it to me is seeming more complicated as time goes on.

vehicles that i have discovered with the electric system:

Toyota MR2 '92-'95 ish

some Subaru models (not sure which)

new mini coopers

one place said the old Fiero's had this but i don't believe it and a few wreckers confirmed it.

new impalas

nobody quote me on this, all i have confirmed is the MR2 and the mini cooper, the impala may be a sort of electric-over system. the guy from eBay didn't mention about a controller box so I wonder if it is a different system yet.

[Kinarfi]

My concerns with power steering is what happens after you lose power, hydraulics adds quite a bit of resistance, and if electrically driven with a pinion drive, it may freeze the steering because of the gearing, watch this,

, even if simple microswitches, were used, no electricity would be no turning, also the case with linear actuators.

One possible way to get easy, powerful turning would be planetary gears on the steering shaft, but you would probably be spinning the wheel 3 - 5 time from center to lock, that's 6 -10 turns lock to lock. You would want a necker's knob for that.

One more idea would be to use something like a starter motor and gears to drive the steering shaft, activated by slight play in the shaft coupling.

I will try to make some drawings.

kinarfi

Here's my idea, mount the armature of the motor inline with the steering shaft or connect a smaller motor via gears - this way, if power is lost, you can still turn the wheel - Now as you turn the steering wheel, it turns the driver disc which activates a micro switch which drives the motor, which drives the linkage and the driven disc and of course, turns the wheels. Then when the you stop turning the wheel, the motor continues to drive until the driven disc reaches neutral again. This could even be done with chain and sprocket up by the steering wheel column. If the drive motor is real strong and fast, it would switch on and off a lot during a slow turn, if motor is weaker, it would just act as an assist, if we had an electronic torque sensor and associated electronics, it would adjust the input to the strong fast motor to make it smooth.

[ksimpsy]

Wow Kinarfi if you pull that off it would be cool and would show just how much time you have on your hands. I just got back from my local wreckers and found most all the main parts i need. I got a gear box from a small 1980's Toyota truck that i think will work fine could be a tight fit though. i also raided a '85 Honda Prelude for the pump, resivour and cooler as well as a tensioner and a belt. the pulley used on the pump is the same as the spare one on the trooper crank. i got all this for $50 that lowered my expected build cost to around $100. gettin better. im going to take a few pics later and try to get them on here soon.

[rocmoc]

Yes keep us in the loop of how it goes!

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[ERV JR]

Hey my dad gave me an idea, not sure if it would work ,I havent looked at it. But the 60's vettes had a power assist that connected to the linkage

[rocmoc]

A lot of the early power steering setups were of that style. They were not the best but would be an improvement. There use to be a kit you could add to a manual steering car or pickup.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[ksimpsy]

things are looking good i was out in the shop with a beer holding things in places and running a tape measure just "figuring". one thing i found is that the pump runs in the opposite direction as the trooper motor so it will need to be put on backwards which will be an issue for most of you guys that have the rad in the stock location. to tell the truth i don't know if there is enough room to mount a pump the other way i wish i could see the trooper pump but oh well. the gear box will fit nicely up front as long as you don't have anything in between the upper frame tubes like me. I mounted a second battery up there to run my winch and stereo so i don't kill the main battery (I have an isolator to keep the 2 batteries separate). i took a bunch of pictures so i will just put my link to my webshots account and you can look at them there.

My Trooper Album

have a look let me know what you think

Kevin

[rocmoc]

Thanks for the photos. How in the heck are you having a problem with dust, all I see is MUD! That stuff is really hard on a machine.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[ksimpsy]

Dust? I hate dust but i love the mud. this mud is better though it is muskeg and is just peat moss and water basically.

[Kinarfi]

Great pictures & yea, what Rocmoc says, "Dust ?"

What's up with the welding on the locker, did you strip it?

Keep going we're all watching

Thanks, Kinarfi

[Guest Lenny]

I'll bet you can get real big time stuck in that stuff. How do you keep it from getting in everything? Thanks for the pics. They show just how versital our Troopers are. Five million years from now, it will be your Trooper people will wonder about after scraping it out of an ancient mud pit like a T-Rex that couldn't get out of an boog.

Good luck

Lenny

[ksimpsy]

yeah some of the skag is "bottomless" it is just a layer of 6" grass and roots on top of a lake. so it is possible to loose one but Ive never seen it. as for the diff i had it strip at first because it wasn't set up right from factory and i just turned the locker gear over so it was like new. second time i was having trouble it wouldn't lock at all so i pulled it apart thinking to find the same problem but nothing so i looked at the cable and discovered it to be ceased. with these tracks i need to drive in diff lock a lot and if it was fully locked it wouldn't bother me. so being as a buddy and i had a few "beverages" that night i just fired up the welder and burned them together. i did it so that if i wanted to put it back all i need is 2 gears and all will be stock. if any one is interested in this let me know because it involves a bit of disassemble to remove the locker shifting fork.

thanks, Kevin