Starting problems

BlueT209 · May 14, 2011

Hello all-

I am having no luck starting my trooper (2009 Trooper T2) and was hoping that someone could help out.

Here's the story:

The last time out, last fall, everything was fine. Gave it a good wash job and put her up for the winter months. I didn't put any stabilizer in the gas, as I thought I would have her out more often, but didn't.

A couple months ago, I got her out and attempted to start, without any luck. Thinking it might be the gas, I took out all the older gas, which works great in the lawn mower, and left her empty until I had a change to mess with it again.

Well, I put a couple gallons of gas in today and had a full charged battery and still can not get her to start. so I checked the following:

-Checked fuses on firewall and behind drivers seat and all seem ok

-Months ago when I tried the first time, I pulled plugs to see if any gas was getting through and from what I remember, I thought they were wet.

-When I turn the key, all the instruments are on and the fan comes on then it sounds like it goes off or silent.

- I only put in a couple gallons of fresh gas, but I have jacked up the front end so what gas is there will go to the back of the fuel cell.

-Called Silverbullet and he said to check the fuel pressure and too see if the fuel pump was pushing anything through. So I pulled off the hose after the fuel pump and cranked the engine, no gas coming through?

- Also, no PSI on the pressure gauge, reads 0

I have very few miles on it and would not think that the fuel filter would be bad yet, but before I go any further, pulling off the fuel pump and filter, I was hoping that some one could give me an idea on what to check next.

I did pulled off the fuse box and no melted wires and the thing was running fine when I parked it to wash it. I don't have any burnt wires anywhere else and the starter is strong. Does it sound like water got in somewhere or ??

I have checked this forum many times for a solution and could not find one yet.

Any ideas/help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Rick

May 14, 2011

If your not getting gas that is almost for sure the whole problem. Un-plug the fan by the radiator and check that the fuel pump is running when the key is turned on. If it isn't, check it's fuse and fuel filter along with checking if your getting current at the fuse block when the key is turned on. Both the fan and the fuel pump are set up to run for a couple of seconds then shut off when the key is first turned on. This is normal. If it's not running, check the fuse, not just by looking at it but with a meter. Sometines, the fuse can blow off to the side and it doesn't show when you look at it. If the fuse is good, try switching the pump relay for the fan relay and try that to see if it's the relay. If everything is running ok, then you have to check for the fuel flow. When mine was newer, and i ran it out of gas, I had to put some pressure to the gas tank to get it to start pumping. I'm not saying to do this, you don't want to over pressure the tank, but this is what I did. I rapped a rag around the blow nozzle on my air hose and pressed it into the spout of the gas tank. Then I disconnected the gas line going to the gas regulator and run it into a narrow necked plastic bottle. While I monitored the line I just disconnected and at the same time put a bit of pressure into the tank, only about 1 psi is all it takes, I had my wife turn on the key, while she did that, I watched for fuel flow, into a can. If I didn't get gas flow, she would turn off the key and then turn it on again for another short on-off of the fan and pump. This always worked for me. once you get flow put the line back on the regulator and see if you now get pressure. You may have to turn the key on and off a few times to build pressure. If you still don,t get pressure, then you need to probably remove the fuel pump and see if you can get it to run on the bench, If not, you may have a bad fuel pump. Look in parts in the pinned threads at the top for a source. The whole thing is a step through process.

Lenny

Kinarfi · May 14, 2011

Being as you're getting 0 on the regulator, follow Lenny's advice about a few pounds pressure into the tank and disconnecting the line into the regulator, but I suggest no power until you see some gas come out of the regulator hose, the gas is also the lubricant for the fuel pump, as it flows through the inside of the pump. If you don't get any gas through the line, see if you get it through the filter, if not there, see if you're getting gas to the filter.

I also recommend moving the pump so it is behind the passenger seat. here's what I did, just don't us that polyuerathane, tygon tubing on the pressure side of the pump, it eventually swells and leaks at the fittings.

I also suggest a surge tank so your engine does't run out of gas on the down hills.

Kinarfi

BlueT209 · May 14, 2011

Hi Lenny & Kinarfi -

THANKS for the ideas! I am heading that way now and will start tinkering to see what I can mess-up, oh I mean fix.

This was exactly what I was I was hoping for, some good ideas before taking off the pump and filter.

I will send update how it goes.

I can't say thanks enough for this site and the help you guys take the time to do.

Cheers!

Rick

BlueT209 · May 14, 2011

Alright, here is the update. Still no luck. Here's is what I did.

1. Unhooked the fan to hear the fuel pump start up.

2. Felt the fuel pump while cranking and it felt and sounds like it was trying to work.

3. Switched the relays of the fan and fuel pump and tried starting. No luck starting, but still sounds like things turn on as supposed to.

4. Tried to pressurize the system using Lenny's idea, doing the multiple on/off to build up pressure and nothing. (air chuck wrapped with shop rag and 1-5 psi shot into the tank. w and without the gas line hooked up at pressure gauge.)

5. Took off the fuel filter and clamped off hoses. Blow through the filter to see if anything was coming through, and I believe that I blew out all the gas inside. Appears not to be clogged.

6. Put back on the filter and unhooked the gas line before the fuel pump and the hose appeared to be dry. I lowered the hose to get the gas to flow out, and it did. Hooked back up the hose to the pump and tried again.

7. Took off the hose before the pressure gauge and try to start again, no gas came through.

Next step is to take off the fuel pump and test it. Sorry if it is a stupid question, but how is that done?

Also, after draining the old gas, I only put in about 1.5 gallons of gas. Is this enough? I do have the front end jacked up so what gas is there goes to the back of the fuel cell.

I have put on only a few miles, I believe 50-75 and have had it out three time w/out problem. No wires are burned up and it worked fine when I parked it to wash it. Why would the fuel pump go out that quickly?

I thought that pressurizing the tank would do the trick, but I still can not get any pressure or gas. I have not adjust the fuel pressure gauge, but maybe I should try?

Thanks for any help.

Rick

May 15, 2011

Alright, here is the update. Still no luck. Here's is what I did.

1. Unhooked the fan to hear the fuel pump start up.

2. Felt the fuel pump while cranking and it felt and sounds like it was trying to work.

3. Switched the relays of the fan and fuel pump and tried starting. No luck starting, but still sounds like things turn on as supposed to.

4. Tried to pressurize the system using Lenny's idea, doing the multiple on/off to build up pressure and nothing. (air chuck wrapped with shop rag and 1-5 psi shot into the tank. w and without the gas line hooked up at pressure gauge.)

5. Took off the fuel filter and clamped off hoses. Blow through the filter to see if anything was coming through, and I believe that I blew out all the gas inside. Appears not to be clogged.

6. Put back on the filter and unhooked the gas line before the fuel pump and the hose appeared to be dry. I lowered the hose to get the gas to flow out, and it did. Hooked back up the hose to the pump and tried again.

7. Took off the hose before the pressure gauge and try to start again, no gas came through.

Next step is to take off the fuel pump and test it. Sorry if it is a stupid question, but how is that done?

Also, after draining the old gas, I only put in about 1.5 gallons of gas. Is this enough? I do have the front end jacked up so what gas is there goes to the back of the fuel cell.

I have put on only a few miles, I believe 50-75 and have had it out three time w/out problem. No wires are burned up and it worked fine when I parked it to wash it. Why would the fuel pump go out that quickly?

I thought that pressurizing the tank would do the trick, but I still can not get any pressure or gas. I have not adjust the fuel pressure gauge, but maybe I should try?

Thanks for any help.

Rick

Do you get gas to flow from the pump at the line going to the regulator? Actually what you are already doing is testing the pump. Disconnect the line coming from the tank after the filter. Run the pump and see if you get any suction by placing your finger over it. It probably won't be much if all the pump has in it is air. Another thing you can try is to clamp the line that comes from the filter to the pump high up and fill it with gas. Now try the pump again. This way the pump is getting a flooded intake so it has to be getting gas. Now when you turn on the pump, it should push gas out the line going to the regulator. Of coarse it will run out of gas quickly when it drains the input line. Don't worry about the pump getting hot because your not running it enough to hurt it especially when it's not pumping against pressure and it's designed to run without gas while it is priming. Moving the pump to the firewall behind the passenger is fine if you have something to cover that area, otherwise it should be moved to the rear side of the firewall behind the passenger. You don't want to get a high pressure leak and have it spray on the riders and catch fire. If it's behind the firewall, it will be less likely to spray the riders. The pump in it's stock location is a bi**h to get at. By moving it, you have much easier access to it and testing it can then be done by running 12 directly to it. If you do that, fasten the wires to the pump terminals using the terminal nuts and make the momentary connection of wires at the battery and away from any gas that the spark could ignite. Actuall once the pump is out, you could let it hang out the side below the gas tank bottom level and it should be getting gas. Then when you run it, it should get prime and should squirt gas out its outlet into a container. Be careful when working with gas this way. You don't want to do anything that will ignite it. If it doesn't pump gas, disconnect the inlet to the pump and gas should flow freely from gravity. This is assuming you have enough gas in the tank to be above the highest point in the hose going to the pump. If you hook a pressure gauge to the out put line coming from the pump you should get pressure when the pump is running. If the pump is getting gas, and it isn't pumping, you have a bad pump. Also if your regulator is set all the way down, you won't get gas pressure anyway before you do any of this testing. So, you should first be sure the regulator top bolt isn't turned all the way out. But, if it worked fine before and you didn't change the regulator any, then this shouldn't be the problem. Again, just try to make a logical step by step approach through checking each leg of the system. You are trying to be sure the pump is getting gas and is then pumping pressure and that the regulator setting is set to pass pressure through. The gage is reading on the outlet side of the regulator after the regulator sets the pressure.

Lenny

ricksrb · May 15, 2011

Do you get gas to flow from the pump at the line going to the regulator? Actually what you are already doing is testing the pump. Disconnect the line coming from the tank after the filter. Run the pump and see if you get any suction by placing your finger over it. It probably won't be much if all the pump has in it is air. Another thing you can try is to clamp the line that comes from the filter to the pump high up and fill it with gas. Now try the pump again. This way the pump is getting a flooded intake so it has to be getting gas. Now when you turn on the pump, it should push gas out the line going to the regulator. Of coarse it will run out of gas quickly when it drains the input line. Don't worry about the pump getting hot because your not running it enough to hurt it especially when it's not pumping against pressure and it's designed to run without gas while it is priming. Moving the pump to the firewall behind the passenger is fine if you have something to cover that area, otherwise it should be moved to the rear side of the firewall behind the passenger. You don't want to get a high pressure leak and have it spray on the riders and catch fire. If it's behind the firewall, it will be less likely to spray the riders. The pump in it's stock location is a bi**h to get at. By moving it, you have much easier access to it and testing it can then be done by running 12 directly to it. If you do that, fasten the wires to the pump terminals using the terminal nuts and make the momentary connection of wires at the battery and away from any gas that the spark could ignite. Actuall once the pump is out, you could let it hang out the side below the gas tank bottom level and it should be getting gas. Then when you run it, it should get prime and should squirt gas out its outlet into a container. Be careful when working with gas this way. You don't want to do anything that will ignite it. If it doesn't pump gas, disconnect the inlet to the pump and gas should flow freely from gravity. This is assuming you have enough gas in the tank to be above the highest point in the hose going to the pump. If you hook a pressure gauge to the out put line coming from the pump you should get pressure when the pump is running. If the pump is getting gas, and it isn't pumping, you have a bad pump. Also if your regulator is set all the way down, you won't get gas pressure anyway before you do any of this testing. So, you should first be sure the regulator top bolt isn't turned all the way out. But, if it worked fine before and you didn't change the regulator any, then this shouldn't be the problem. Again, just try to make a logical step by step approach through checking each leg of the system. You are trying to be sure the pump is getting gas and is then pumping pressure and that the regulator setting is set to pass pressure through. The gage is reading on the outlet side of the regulator after the regulator sets the pressure.

Lenny

Lenny covered pretty much everything but one more thing to check.I know you said you were getting fuel from the tank to the filter but if possible use a flashlight and look down into your tank from the filler and see if there is any rubber particles in the bottom by the fuel outlet.Maybe once pump starts working it sucks the rubbber up against the fuel outlet and stops the flow.I have heard of people having rubber inside their tank blocking the fuel outlet.One cause was the fuel cap gasket but i have found lots of rubber in my fuel filter and bottom of tank but not from the fuel cap gasket.Only thing i could think of was from fuel lines so i changed all of mine and since have not found any.Just a thought and something else to look for.

Kinarfi · May 15, 2011

one step at a time,

step 1, Put more gas in the tank just to be absolutely sure,

step 2, add air pressure to the tank and see if it blows through the filter,

step 3, see if you can blow fuel to the pump,

step 4, see if you can blow fuel through the pump,

step 5, power the pump up and pump it into something to catch it.

step 6, see how much pressure you have,

You should probably running about now,

BlueT209 · May 15, 2011

Guys - I wanted send an update. RUNNING!

Here are the details in case it helps someone else.

After following the ideas from Lenny, Kinarfi and ricksrb, this is what happened.

-Took a empty ketchup bottle, filled with gas and filled up the gas line before the fuel pump. Held up the line and started to pressurize the system by putting my thumb over the open line and turning the key on and off a few times to have the system start up. (felt the pump sucking against my thumb)

-After about 4 times of on and off with the key, I attempted to start, which it finally did.

-Hooked all lines back up, filled tank just about full of gas, put cap back on....and after a few nice words, she started up!

Some of the lessons lessons learned:

-Always store for long periods with stabilizer in the tank.

-If the gas does ever run out, or you pump it all out like me, you will need to check and make sure to pressurize the system.

-I should think about moving my fuel pump.

-I should change out my fuel lines with better lines.

-The UTVBoard has some great members and have helped me out, way more than I thought.

I owe you guys a beer or two. I hope that we can meet up sometime. I got my paperwork for last years jamboree, but was unable to make it. I will see if it is not to late to make it too this years. Need to check time and money, which seems are always short.

Again, thanks for the help. This old farm-boy is learning as we go with the troopers.

Cheer!

Rick

May 15, 2011

Think of it this way. If you were rich, you could hire everything done for you. You could probably even hire someone to drive it for you. Shoot, with money you can have it all. Then again, some of the rich guys must be really helpless and lack the knowledge of how to do anything. I know a bunch more about engines and other things since purchasing the Trooper. Been a hands on guy all my life. Got my first welder when I was 12. Have been building and developing things ever since. I'm no different then anyone else. If I'm good at anything, it's because I've done it over and over all my life. People say I do a nice job. I say that I've been doing this stuff for ove 50 years now. If I can't do a decent job after that much pratice, something is wrong with me. Fixing things yourself, keeps the mind stimulated and fresh and there is always that pride of accomplishment. Glad you got it running and you probably ran around like a cock rooster a while feeling good about what you accomplished. We all work better when we work as a team. Thanks for being part of our team.

Lenny

plumber · May 16, 2011

That's why I like my surge tank it keeps 10lbs. of pressure to the fuel pump instead of gravity fed.

ricksrb · May 16, 2011

Guys - I wanted send an update. RUNNING!

Here are the details in case it helps someone else.

After following the ideas from Lenny, Kinarfi and ricksrb, this is what happened.

-Took a empty ketchup bottle, filled with gas and filled up the gas line before the fuel pump. Held up the line and started to pressurize the system by putting my thumb over the open line and turning the key on and off a few times to have the system start up. (felt the pump sucking against my thumb)

-After about 4 times of on and off with the key, I attempted to start, which it finally did.

-Hooked all lines back up, filled tank just about full of gas, put cap back on....and after a few nice words, she started up!

Some of the lessons lessons learned:

-Always store for long periods with stabilizer in the tank.

-If the gas does ever run out, or you pump it all out like me, you will need to check and make sure to pressurize the system.

-I should think about moving my fuel pump.

-I should change out my fuel lines with better lines.

-The UTVBoard has some great members and have helped me out, way more than I thought.

I owe you guys a beer or two. I hope that we can meet up sometime. I got my paperwork for last years jamboree, but was unable to make it. I will see if it is not to late to make it too this years. Need to check time and money, which seems are always short.

Again, thanks for the help. This old farm-boy is learning as we go with the troopers.

Cheer!

Rick

Glad to hear to hear it.Forget about the beer,Im sure everyone would rather you use the money to put it towrds the trip to Utah for the jamboree.(did i just say that??)LOL. hope you can make.

stevozz · May 26, 2011

Hi Rick,

Yes I also had that problem but with my sending unit gasket. The gas fumes just made the gasket fall apart inside the tank, and blocked everything. I made one up and never had a problem with it again.

Steve

Kinarfi · May 26, 2011

Guys - I wanted send an update. RUNNING!

Here are the details in case it helps someone else.

After following the ideas from Lenny, Kinarfi and ricksrb, this is what happened.

-Took a empty ketchup bottle, filled with gas and filled up the gas line before the fuel pump. Held up the line and started to pressurize the system by putting my thumb over the open line and turning the key on and off a few times to have the system start up. (felt the pump sucking against my thumb)

-After about 4 times of on and off with the key, I attempted to start, which it finally did.

-Hooked all lines back up, filled tank just about full of gas, put cap back on....and after a few nice words, she started up!

Some of the lessons lessons learned:

-Always store for long periods with stabilizer in the tank.

-If the gas does ever run out, or you pump it all out like me, you will need to check and make sure to pressurize the system.

-I should think about moving my fuel pump.

-I should change out my fuel lines with better lines.

-The UTVBoard has some great members and have helped me out, way more than I thought.

I owe you guys a beer or two. I hope that we can meet up sometime. I got my paperwork for last years jamboree, but was unable to make it. I will see if it is not to late to make it too this years. Need to check time and money, which seems are always short.

Again, thanks for the help. This old farm-boy is learning as we go with the troopers.

Cheer!

Rick

If you do, stay away from the Tygon and ether style hoses, they can't handle the pressure, stay with the rubber reinforce regular fuel lines. First hand experience here, my tygon swelled and leaked right at the host clamp.

Kinarfi

ricksrb · May 27, 2011

Hi Rick,

Yes I also had that problem but with my sending unit gasket. The gas fumes just made the gasket fall apart inside the tank, and blocked everything. I made one up and never had a problem with it again.

Steve

Since changing the fuel lines have not seen any rubber in the tank.I also run one of those glass see through filters about every other run just to get a good glimpse of what is being filtered out.

Quig · May 27, 2011

Since changing the fuel lines have not seen any rubber in the tank.I also run one of those glass see through filters about every other run just to get a good glimpse of what is being filtered out.

With only that few miles, you've probably only used a couple of tanks!!! lmao : ) Anoymous member?

BlueT209 · May 27, 2011

stevozz - Thanks for the heads-up! I will check out the gasket.

Kinarfi - Thanks, I will stay away from any Tygon products!

ricksrb - Next on the list, a glass filter! Thanks.

Quig - "With only that few miles, you've probably only used a couple of tanks!!! lmao : )" I could use the excuse that my full-time job and my freelance work keeps me off the trails and in the dog house with the wife or I could use the excuse that I am afraid of breaking the T2, but, you are 100% correct! I want to drive it like I stole it, and if it breaks, well that is better than collecting dust. Thanks for the kick in the nads, I need to get her out more!

I need to make some of the technical adjustments mentioned the the other post, but would also like to do some of the mods that I have seen you guys doing.

I can't make the trip in June, but when can you guys meet up in Big Bend, Tx or somewhere in New Mexico? (I know, when the weather is cooler)

Cheers

BlueT209

rocmoc · May 27, 2011

I can't make the trip in June, but when can you guys meet up in Big Bend, Tx or somewhere in New Mexico? (I know, when the weather is cooler)

Cheers

BlueT209

Where is there riding in Big Bend, TX.?

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

Quig · May 27, 2011

BlueT209,, Sorry about comment, that was directed at Ricksrb,, had to jab him,,,,, but if it helps get you going,, great,, use that trooper!!!! lol,, j/k Quig