New guy, tale of woe, with a couple questions

[Joe Breaux]

5500 rpm is redline on my Hisun 500 engine ..it does not have a rev limiter except in reverse 

[cliffyk]

1 hour ago, Bret4207 said:

Cliffy, that set up is on a Briggs Vanguard, not the Hisun/Coleman. We just got off on a tangent. The Briggs had the same set up only they used a relay where I use a toggle. Thanks for the thoughts though!

I reread the thread and found where I went wrong. I believe the Vanguard series still uses a plain ol' magneto design ignition with magnets in the flywheel and an armature type HV coil, shorting the armature to ground is the classic stop/kill switch technology for such systems--it's been in use for well over 60 years of my personal experience--since when we built go-karts from bed rails and engines salvaged from old reel-type mowers--and I suspect yours as well..

Edited December 23, 2020 by cliffyk
spelling

[Travis]

13 hours ago, cliffyk said:

I reread the thread and found where I went wrong. I believe the Vanguard series still uses a plain ol' magneto design ignition with magnets in the flywheel and an armature type HV coil, shorting the armature to ground is the classic stop/kill switch technology for such systems--it's been in use for well over 60 years of my personal experience--since when we built go-karts from bed rails and engines salvaged from old reel-type mowers--and I suspect yours as well..

the technology has been around for years, like you said. Briggs didn't start using it (called it Magnetron) until the early 90's due to them being tight wads and not paying the patent deal to Atom industries who made the hall effect chip.

[Bret4207]

21 hours ago, cliffyk said:

I reread the thread and found where I went wrong. I believe the Vanguard series still uses a plain ol' magneto design ignition with magnets in the flywheel and an armature type HV coil, shorting the armature to ground is the classic stop/kill switch technology for such systems--it's been in use for well over 60 years of my personal experience--since when we built go-karts from bed rails and engines salvaged from old reel-type mowers--and I suspect yours as well..

Yup, but using a relay with a diode to prevent juice flowing back to the coils is fairly new, and when the relay or diode gets messed up they can back feed juice to the coils and that fries the coils- or so I'm told. A plain old kill switch out of the factory loop seems to be working, just as it did back int he day.

[Bret4207]

23 hours ago, Joe Breaux said:

5500 rpm is redline on my Hisun 500 engine ..it does not have a rev limiter except in reverse 

This one indicates red line at 9K. 4k is about 30MPH in hi range. This isn't how it used to perform at all. I've never had it over 40 or maybe 6500 rpm myself, but something is definitely wrong.

[Ben1098]

B & S  VANGUARD ignition problem.

YES, same old magneto coil design from way back....no need for a battery to supply the coil current...the flywheel magnet rotating thru the mag coil "legs" is the power source.  The mag coil has a low turns PRIMARY and a high turns HV output to the spark plug.  60's type lawnmowers used mechanical points (mounted to engine case I.e. GND) located under the flywheel that opened the primary coil circuit as the piston approached TDC-----8 deg BTDC.  This same coil lead went to a condenser AND the throttle activated kill switch....before that a lever switch....before that, no electrical connection but a metal tab that was flipped over to short the top of the spark plug. 

Bottom line:  KILL:  the coil current is conducted shorted to GND.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 RUN:  With the kill switch OFF.......the points do the same thing when they were closed.......BUT......OPEN (exactly timed by point gap and the ground/machined POINTS CAM flat spot on crank arm) to produce a spark from the mag coil HV output.  ALSO, the flywheel magnet has to rotate under the mag coil "legs" or coil pole pieces AT the same exact time to generate a MAXIMUM magnetic field.  The maximum magnetic field is what generates the NEG current pulse that flows to the CLOSED points.  The desired spark timing is when the piston is at say 8 deg BTDC.  The points are supposed to OPEN at this time in rotation for correct ign timing.                                                            NOTE:  The flywheel key LOCKS the flywheel with the molded/cast magnet poles to the crank for it's share of the timing show. (sheared or 1/2 sheared flywheel KEY will be OFF TIME and therefore NO SPARK). The generated mag coil primary current PEAKS, the points now OPEN, and now the energy stored has to dump somewhere----somewhere being the HV coil windings-----SPARK.

Vanguard is a 90 deg. V-twin...think of it as 2 singles scabbed together.  Each cylinder has a Mag ignition coil.  The magnet in the flywheel rotates under the respective coils with respective pistons at BTDC.  IF cylinders were 180 deg. apart, there would be no need for the diode cable harness......a wasted spark system like the '70s era dual point in-line four cyl motorcycles AKA rice burners--H,Y,K, S.  The timing is the 8 deg. BTDC with the wanted SPARK on the COMPRESSION stroke and the wasted spark at valve overlap...which does nothing because of the already burnt exhaust gasses are being pushed out.

The electronic ignition module has an "electronic switch" that close/open(fire) for BOTH cylinders as they go thru the 8 deg. BTDC desired spark timing.  The coils have to be ISOLATED from each other----DIODES......that pass the NEG pulse from CY 1 (thus the polarity requirement of cathode(band) facing the magneto coil primary) to the "POINTS" but NOT to the CYL 2 (which is BLOCKED by it's own diode----wrong polarity of pulse) coil that is not charges as of yet.......Diode failure will circumvent the sudden OPEN CIRCUIT req'd to transfer ALL the energy to the respective HV side of the coil.  Results in no spark/wimpy spark/fouled plug/low power,,,woes.

Making a jumper wire and connecting the magneto coils ONE  AT A TIME will tell if both coils are good and that the ign module is giving the closed/open required to fire the coil AT TH E CORRECT TIME also. 

 

 

 

[Chase83]

Hello everyone! I have a question about my Coleman 550. I’ve had issues with the fuel injector before which I replaced because of information regarding them getting clogged. That fixed the problem, but now about a year later I am having a similar issue, only this time I installed an in-line fuel filter on the “gasoline outlet” and I have checked fuel flow before and after the fuel filter which seems fine when the key is turned on. However, if I remove the injector and try to turn it on, no fuel comes on, if I remove the hose from the top of the injector there’s fuel. The vehicle will attempt to start but from what I can tell, it’s not getting fuel through the injector whether it’s the new one or the old one. Any advice? Thank you!

[Bret4207]

On 10/22/2021 at 10:35 PM, Chase83 said:

Hello everyone! I have a question about my Coleman 550. I’ve had issues with the fuel injector before which I replaced because of information regarding them getting clogged. That fixed the problem, but now about a year later I am having a similar issue, only this time I installed an in-line fuel filter on the “gasoline outlet” and I have checked fuel flow before and after the fuel filter which seems fine when the key is turned on. However, if I remove the injector and try to turn it on, no fuel comes on, if I remove the hose from the top of the injector there’s fuel. The vehicle will attempt to start but from what I can tell, it’s not getting fuel through the injector whether it’s the new one or the old one. Any advice? Thank you!

No fuel sprays out the injector while you crank it? When you have the injector off the furl line and turn the key on you should get a whole bunch of fuel flowing. When the injector hitched up, it shouldn't pass any fuel unless you are cranking it over or if it's running, which obviously it can't do without the injector putting fuel in the engine.

I had an inline filter on my 550, but the shop that eventually got it running said the pump didn't have enough guts to push fuel through the restriction of the filter. I dunno, they removed it and it ran. I question the quality of both the fuel pump and the hose they use and I want to replace the hose, and maybe the pump, with better quality stuff.

[Tejun]

There are several YouTube videos on how to test/clean injectors. I originally rigged up a 12v battery with push button switch to pulse the injector while holding fuel pressure on the injector. Later, I bought an injector pulse tool on eBay to use. I was having injectors plug up about every tank of gas so I cleaned the tank out, installed a fuel filter (stainless inline 10 Micron) and also changed out all the fuel lines. Since doing that, I have not had any fuel related problems (knocking on wood !!). The only residual problem for mine is the decompression mechanism does not seem to work. I spoke to Motorcycle Doctor (sells on eBay) and they had seen some cam sprockets with bad decompressor springs so I bought a new sprocket assembly and installed but the problem still exists. This winter, I plan to bring in shop and try installing better/bigger wiring to the starter. I have also changed out the starter relay.