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Bret4207

New guy, tale of woe, with a couple questions

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Hi, I have a 2019 Coleman Outfitter 550, purchased from Tractor Supply.  I'm told this is a Hisun Sector 550? Is this correct? I've just gotten mine back from a 5 month visit to the warranty shop for a no start condition. After numerous emails with Coleman and calls to the shop, I finally picked it up Saturday before last. It ran, but ran rough. I was assured by the shop owner, who obviously wanted it out of his yard, that "It'll smooth out as you use it." He tells me it had a bad fuse and dirty fuel.  I believe he has replaced 3 or 4 injectors on this and we did add an inline fuel filter. We got about 45 minutes of easy run time on it. I'm 60, use it on the farm and don't race it. Now I can barely get it to start. I changed the plug for a  brand new NGK same as was in it- no change. In fact when I checked it I found it fairly well fouled and not arcing across the tip, but off the side of the center of the plug to inner plug wall of the threaded portion. The old plug sparked at the gap correctly and it will run. It spits and sputters and won't idle. Acts like a dirty injector to me and I've contacted Coleman again, but  I'm looking at probably a 75 mile trip to get it to a better shop. I've read of people cleaning the injectors, but don't know if it's effective. I have good fuel flow from the pump and no water in the gas, which is 91 non-ethanol.  I can't understand why the injector would get dirty unless the interior of the factory fuel line is deteriorating at this point. 4 grand is about the max RPM it will turn at this point. It's either fuel or an ignition issue I'd say, and I'm thinking fuel.

 

I've got 45 years of small engine, 2 and 4 cycle, and all sorts of farm/auto engine experience under my belt, but this computer controlled, gas injection stuff is outside my comfort zone. I got this into the warranty place a couple weeks shy of the 1 year warranty expiring 5 months back and don't have much faith in Coleman/Hisun taking much more action. So, where would you all start looking if you were me? New Ebay injector to start or what? I've read you reset the ignition control by holding the gas at max for 3 seconds and shutting the machine off with your foot to the floor. I have a Sector 550 shop manual CD but I'm not seeing that or much else yet. Doesn't matter since it won't wind up that high anyway. ?????

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So very sorry to hear of your woes.

I only run premium fuel in mine with an occasional does of octane boost to keep the fuel system clean. Anything else and it spits and sputters like it wants to die.

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I don't have any issues with sputtering, fortunately.  48 hours on the clock.  I do run premium fuel with Stabil.  I will put some Seafoam through it soon.

If you haven't changed your oil for the first time yet, it's a real treat.

Best of luck.

CC

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Hi Bret4207

sorry to hear about the issues. One thing that causes rough running is the seat belt not being fastened. Thought I would through that out just in case. I use a seat belt blank purchased off Amazon. Mine was running rough one day and I removed it and buckled seat belt and it ran better ??

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Thanks for the replies. Yes, I've done the oil change, quite a trick that first time, I got a different style filter wrench that works good at an auto parts store. Found a great deal of RTV type trash floating in the drain oil the first change! QA doesn't seem to be a big thing with the Chinese builders.

 

We keep the drivers seat belt connected all the time. It's worth a check, though it doesn't act the same as when I used to forget to buckle it.

 

FWIW, I was just contacted by Coleman offering to send the machine to another shop 2 hours away. They are trying I guess.

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3 hours ago, Bret4207 said:

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I've done the oil change, quite a trick that first time, I got a different style filter wrench that works good at an auto parts store. Found a great deal of RTV type trash floating in the drain oil the first change! QA doesn't seem to be a big thing with the Chinese builders.

 

We keep the drivers seat belt connected all the time. It's worth a check, though it doesn't act the same as when I used to forget to buckle it.

 

FWIW, I was just contacted by Coleman offering to send the machine to another shop 2 hours away. They are trying I guess.

Good luck on trying a different place. I purchased mine from original owner and according to their warranty period, it should be still covered, but when I spoke with Jess at Coleman was giving her my info and informed her that I did not know the purchase date and why, she said they "didn't cover used units" ?????   She was happy to give me names of shops near me but that was about it.

From some responses on another thread I posted, it sounds like the service shops are trying to figure out (aka learn) how to work on these things themselves. 

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You are running rich as noted by the fouled spark plug.  Multiple things to try.....you said it was at a repair shop for 5 months???and then came back rough running.  Remove throttle body intake boot from air filter...checking if a critter moved in and choked off the air intake supply.  Don't drive/run around to get dust into the intake.  Start with a new NGK plug.  Next item to check, disconnect the connector to the O2 sensor.  With it missing the signal, the Delphi ign module will default to a almost limp mode.  A bad O2 sensor will run ratty (bad signal) but disconnected.....computer will try to run on a good map.  Another thing is the thermistor mounted in the head.......cold temp will have a high resistance (to ground---the head) and hot reading will be a low resistance.  The voltage source is the ECM (5 volt) with the changing resistance to ground (thus the changing voltage signal) maps the fuel pulse width----think of a carb choke gagging in extra fuel on cold startup and run......Just like a throttle position will have a voltage range from .6v at idle to 4.5v at WOT....wide open throttle......voltage cold will be close to 5v and warm 3v and hot 1v as a general rule of thumb.  IF the wire is open from the ECU to the thermistor, the ECU will see 5 v and think it is at the south pole------COLD=extra fuel.  Check voltage at the thermistor...open wire will indicate 0v but 5v at the ECU pin=extra fuel.  Happy hunting.

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One technique you can try is to pull the injector rail and point the injectors at a cloth while cranking the engine. If the spray is inconsistent you know it is an injector. If all are firing good, borrow a fuel pressure gage from the local parts store and check your fuel pressure at the injector rail. If that is good you can eliminate fuel and look at ignition and compression. Pulling plug wires can help find cylinders that aren't firing.

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Thanks for the thoughts Ben. Some of that is well beyond my comfort and knowledge zone, but it gives me a place to start. I did put a new plug in it but that's the one that fouled so bad, it was an NGK number specified in the manual and was the same as the one in it.  I'll check the intake side. Getting beyond that  and into the sensor testing is a bit beyond my experience level with modern electronics (face it, I'm old) and I would sort of need to see how it's done. If you know of any tutorials, I'd sure appreciate a link. Thanks again for your in depth post!

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Thanks Neil, I have a new injector on the way. I will run the test as suggested before changing anything.

 

One question you all may be willing to comment on- I've heard good things about products from "Motorcylce Doctor" as regards this machine. I see he has injectors at near $70.00 and other places they are down in the $10.00 each category. Does anyone know if the more expensive ones are actually better? Motorcycle Doctor" states his are "Hisun factory" in his ad, but that they've used these in Rhinos or Mules or something and had good luck. I know nothing about them, thoughts?

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No thoughts about Moto Doctor. One more suggestion: get some starting fluid and spray it into the intake. I'm sure from your small engine experience you know how that works.

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As you probably have now realized, if it says HISUN on it, you got hosed.. Even the rep at Massimo Motors told me they dropped HISUN engines last year because of so much problems and they wont even warrenty the ones they sold.. HISUN wont even talk to me... We are all just left holding the bag.. My  Massimo with HISUN engine has spent 6 months of its first year in the shop on 6 visits... Parts are hard to get and warranty is non existent .. Most shops refuse to even work on them now.. They dont get paid .. 

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Hello again.  I jumped into 3 problems I have seen in the past.  Mice love the filter material....a sitting machine is a welcome mat.  A clogged filter or nest in the intake is the same as a B&S engine turned over and the air filter flooded with engine oil...cannot draw enough air and results in a "choked" carb condition.  Remove the throttle body intake boot (the rubber collar going to the air box) and avoid getting dirt into the intake.  This removes all air flow restrictions.  The reason for a new spark plug is trouble shooting/testing....need a clean plug for the test run.  IF it runs OK with the boot removed, problem is in the intake circuit.  The old fouled plug won't run right and negate any testing done.  The run time is just long enough to see if it works.....BUT not too long as to load it up like the old plug.  STILL NO WORK....next line below.

COMPRESSION and SPARK.  Pull plug and put finger over the spark plug threaded head hole....attempt to hold in any pressure....WOT (gas pedal to floor) and unrestricted intake air (takes air to make AIR), CRANK OVER ENGINE....IF finger blows off with a POP (note might BURN if you seal it too tightly because of the air burst JET) you have enough compression.  Cheap and dirty compression test without tester.  IF GOOD, skip next section below.

NOTE:  low compression and/or a weak spark will mimic a RICH fuel mixture....sooty black plug.  REASON....fuel is not burned completely by misfires....builds up on plug insulator (wet plug) and then foul.  

LOW COMPRESSION.......diesel engines fire (without spark) on HIGH compression of fuel/air mix.  Gas engines only require say 120 PSI compression of the fuel air mix.  Low compression causes:  timing chain jumped (valve timing off), valve adjustment too tight, burnt exhaust valve/seat, rings work or stuck in piston grooves.

SPARK....spin engine over and hold sparkplug to any metal on engine.  Should have nice fat hot spark and not a wispy wimp.  Slowly lift the spark plug thread body away from the engine....should jump a good 1/4 inch gap and then try to find a better path to gnd....that being YOU.  Follow safe methods.  NOW an easy check of the timing of the spark.  Finger over hole as before but LIGHTLY, no throttle required this time, crank engine and observe spark.......should fire on every rotation of the engine (waste spark system) which will be twice (exhaust and compression strokes).  You are looking for a spark timed to the compression POP/spit on your finger.  IF a question of timing...use a timing light BUT you have to remove a cover on pass side of engine to get  to crank rotating member.  I have used a timing light looking thru an INTAKE valve cover lid but this can be confusing because you will see two (2) flashed images....cam runs at half speed so you will see valve closed (COMPRESSION) and a slight blur/shift from overlap where the intake valve starts to open at the EXHAUST to INTAKE stroke time (the wasted spark). 

You had one good suggestion about go juice (starting fluid).  Find fuel tank under pass seat.....round "plug/cover" for fuel pump.  Note the 4 wire connector which is the fuel pump supply +12Vdc and Gnd     and    the fuel level sending unit.  Remove clip and disconnect the 4 wires.....now no fuel pump to 40 PSI...no fuel at the injector after initial residual pressure drop...no chance to foul NEW plug now.  Crank over engine and it might sputter from residual fuel pressure then just plain crank and no run.  Feed the go juice in spurts......to filter (intake duct tube all connected---air box lid OFF).  REASON:  If INTAKE valve is OPEN slightly say due to being adjusted too tight or jumped cam timing, you will get a flash fire back thru throttle body...Risky shooting directly into the throttle body.  DOES the engine run of the burst? and then die after it sucks go juice out of filter.  Try several times and note engine runability.  Crank again and give another shot burst to get running....NOW, you give bursts to keep it running after trailing off and note engine run quality.  IF you can simulate a CARB system (remember the injectors and shooting blanks and the throttle body is now just a carb butterfly valve and YOU are the fuel metering jets and passages), your problem is the fuel metering by the Delphi ECM.

The DELPHI ECM module can fail....seen only one bad on B&S large engine (wounded but NOT dead that did screw up fuel delivery)  but very rare......most fueling problems are due to the multiple inputs to the module.  some were caused by other repair shops sloppy work, wiring harness problems, mice love wire insulation, O2 sensor failure, and so on.  Digest these LOW tech (no scope or meters req'd) testing ideas and get back.....BEN

P.S.  Old is only a state of mind....just don't do stupid stuff because your body doesn't heal as easily.  Give you a hint---loser on first draft lottery....do the math.  

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Thanks Ben and others! I'll see what I can do and get back to you.

 

Ben, interesting you mention the larger B+S engines. I have a 23hp Vanguard in a skid steer that eats coils. Have to pull the engine to change them. Traced to a (likely) feed back of power to coils through kill switch system. Bypassed that and went with a simple toggle kill switch and it WAS working fine. But my 18 year old was using it and now it's a no start as in the past. This might be a "Dad only" machine!

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6 hours ago, Bret4207 said:

Thanks Ben and others! I'll see what I can do and get back to you.

 

Ben, interesting you mention the larger B+S engines. I have a 23hp Vanguard in a skid steer that eats coils. Have to pull the engine to change them. Traced to a (likely) feed back of power to coils through kill switch system. Bypassed that and went with a simple toggle kill switch and it WAS working fine. But my 18 year old was using it and now it's a no start as in the past. This might be a "Dad only" machine!

some of those briggs V-twin engines have a diode in the kill wires that can go bad and cause that. it can even be insulation wore off on the kill wire going back to the coil and grounding the coil and killing spark, like when you turn the key.

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On 12/12/2020 at 7:45 AM, Bret4207 said:

Thanks Neil, I have a new injector on the way. I will run the test as suggested before changing anything.

 

One question you all may be willing to comment on- I've heard good things about products from "Motorcylce Doctor" as regards this machine. I see he has injectors at near $70.00 and other places they are down in the $10.00 each category. Does anyone know if the more expensive ones are actually better? Motorcycle Doctor" states his are "Hisun factory" in his ad, but that they've used these in Rhinos or Mules or something and had good luck. I know nothing about them, thoughts?

I’ve purchased several items from Motorcycle Dr. and have had no issues. I’ve also called with questions and they have been very helpful.

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16 hours ago, Travis said:

some of those briggs V-twin engines have a diode in the kill wires that can go bad and cause that. it can even be insulation wore off on the kill wire going back to the coil and grounding the coil and killing spark, like when you turn the key.

Yup, I bypassed that kill wire diode, ran a line direct to ground through a simple toggle switch for a kill. I stupidly used  a spade end connector and it came off a couple times. That might have done some coil damage. I should get more than 2-3 hours run time out of a set of coils!

 

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OT, I know, but the Vanguard problem is rectified. I cleaned up some electrical connectors and I tested the plugs. Had decent fire with a white spark every now and then but I could see the spark on one plug jump to the side pretty often instead of arcing at the tip on the rear side plug. Went to town and picked up the next heat range hotter NGKs. Started right up and ran fine. I'm not sure why a fouled plug(s?) would cause a backfire situation mimicking an out of time/coil issue, but there you have it. I'm counting my blessings as tearing that thing out of the machine is a pain!

 

I'm slowly getting into the Coleman. Figured out how to disconnect the injector and then it started snowing. More today I hope.

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HI there.....not to bust your bubble BUT your problem of weak spark/good spark MIGHT come back when you need it the most.  Vanguard is a v-twin with a magnet section molded into the flywheel that goes under the respective mag coil for each cylinder.  Go back to the old days when a single cylinder engine was "the" B & S engine.  Remember before the electronic mag ign coils???  Under the flywheel and Al lid was a set of points and condenser.  The little fiber "points pushrod" that rubbed on a flat spot on the crankshaft arm that opened the points to fire the coil?????  The throttle cable "kill switch" that had to be adjusted correctly or it would short the mag coil/points/condenser lead wire to Gnd??? The magnets in the flywheel had to be timed very close to TDC to GENERATE A PEAK MAGNETIC FLUX in the mag coil when the piston came upon TDC on compression stroke..... and......of course the overlap stroke that was wasted.  A sheared flywheel key would be a no start/run condition??? Oh, those were the simple days.  BUT WAIT, magneto/ignition coil circuit/"points" electronics did NOT change......just evolved into electronic switches to replace the high maintenance  points.  The low voltage wire from both coils still "need" points......electronic points that is.  BUT, on the Vanguard V-twin, they tie together and come out as a single wire to the IGN terminal mounted on the cover.  Simple little harness....3 lugs....and a DIODE in each coil leg.  The electronic points will "OPEN" at the correct time for BOTH cylinders.......but there is only 1 magnet in the flywheel and 2 mag coils (1 each cylinder).  Therefore, only one mag coil can be "charged" at a time (when the flywheel magnet rotates under each cylinder's respective coil)....Sorta the same idea behind car engines up to the late 60's (points cam, external ign coil,  and rotor/distributor).....selecting which cylinder gets the spark as needed.  Problem is, EACH of the coils primary currents need to be ISOLATED during it's time/turn for a spark output to get the  FULL or max current then cut OFF quickly.  DIODES to the rescue!!!

DIODES-----one-way electrical valves----current only flows thru diode in one direction

Diode polarity(s) in the harness is Cathode (silver band on black plastic body) to the mag coil terminal.  Both Anodes (the opposite non band end) tie together and go to the "electronic points" cover connector.  The coil current is a NEG pulse generated by the rotating magnet poles that gets cut off (OPEN by the electronic points)----like the old days----The mag coil has to be OVER the magnet poles on the flywheel to generate the "energy"......actually a magnetic field in the coil and laminations.  Thus the coil can only fire when rotated over the flywheel magnet poles AND when the "points switch" OPEN.  There is only one flywheel magnet section.  Thus,the mag coils are energized at different times (V angle) and a NEGATIVE current pulse flows from each mag coil lug AT IT's CHARGING TIME.....thru the DIODE.....then to the electronic switch cover connection.....a CLOSED electronic switch that OPENS at peak for the spark at the correct timing(s).

DIODE FAILURE MODES:

Blown open....no spark on dead section coil.  Other coil has spark.

SHORTS......will have spark at both coils BUT wispy weak---thus fouled plugs.  WHY?  Well, the system has to mimic a mechanical set of points......CLOSED for PEAK coil current when mag coil is over magnet poles....then......OPEN at the desired ign timing point say 8 deg BTDC.....Primary mag coil current at MAX then a sudden break in current (magnetic field energy collapses across the HI side coil winding=high voltage spark on spark plug lead).  With a harness diode shorted, the sudden "point open circuit" has the primary winding of the OTHER coil drawing current (NO ISOLATION or back feed) that "drains" the energy slowly (wispy weak)instead of a rapid coil current cut off (hot spark).

HARNESS DIODE TEST:  Pull the covers to expose the ign coils and the simple 3 lug harness.  METER ALERT!!!!  Digital meter with DIODE test function req'd.  Si diodes have a front to back resistance of very LOW R in one direction to HIGH R...>500K or "open circuit".  Diode Test function runs about 1 ma DC  thru tested diode.

GOOD DIODE.......Meter  will indicate .6 in forward [red (+) to Anode (non band end)] and black (-) to band end.  Reverse leads on diode under test....should show same as before making the connection (OPEN).

SHORTED DIODE.......0 or very low .0002 number BOTH DIRECTIONS.

OPEN DIODE.......HI resistance both ways....same reading on meter with leads in open air.  I like to then go from DIODE FUNCTION to 500K Ohm scale,  wet fingers and hold meter leads to diode leads with wet fingers of both hands....should see around 200K ohm...then open one set of fingers and remove your body resistance from the circuit....just a simple test to make sure the meter is working.....should show open.

 

FINAL WORD        ELECTRONIC PARTS CAN WORK AND THEN FAIL ONLY TO COME BACK AGAIN AND WORK.  These are the worst to  T/S and of course NEVER FAIL when the customer is trying to show how it fails...been there?????

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