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Kinarfi

Fuel Tanks & Mods

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Just got my new fuel tank in, wow, what a long filler neck :D , I guess things do improve with age, no wait, it's the newer the better, oh I just don't know, guess it really doesn't matter. Take a look at the photos, 2684655760104282158HQdBga_th.jpg, just for fun, I'm going to design & build a capacitive fuel gauge sender for it and make mod similar to flatbed's so the engine doesn't die when going down hill with low fuel. I'll take more photos

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Pulled the old tank & took the fuel gauge apart to see what makes it tick. It turns out that it has 5 reading, empty for the last 2 inches, 1/4 for about 1 1/2 inches, 1/2 for about 1 1/2 inches, 3/4 for about 1 1/2 inches and full for about 2 inches. Some other detail are: when full the resistance is 3 ohms and .3 volts when empty it has 110 ohms and 4.6 volts. It is grounded internally, poorly in my opinion, mine had started leaking if I stacked the tank, so I epoxied it to seal it up.

2906799300104282158dYAKCp_th.jpg

As the gas level rises, a magnet floats up closing the reed switches, there is a stop for the float about 3/4 inch from full.

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My sending unit stopped working a couple of months ago. Joyner would not replace but would sale me a new one, but only guaranty the new one for a month. The thing cost nearly $90. I said forget it. My dealer tried to repair and did sort of. Since I have a front hood that opens, I am installing a simple sight gauge or replacing with a simple sending unit with a float arm. I know of a couple other people who's gas gauges don't work. Personally this is one item that I would call over built/engineered and a piece of junk.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

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Mail it to me and if I can, I'll fix, shipping charges only. I enjoy messing with things like this and if I get my capacitive fuel gauge working, I'll build some extra ones. PM me for my address if you want to do this.

Jeff

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kinarfi, if you look at the tank that i change you will see that i moved the mounts closer to the edges of the tank, if you hold the tank on the mounts closest to the filler spout the tank will balance on those two tabs, that means those two tabs are holding all the weight and the others are balancing the tank. Move the tabs to the end of the big part of the tank and make sure you put rubber on the mounts.

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Will do on the rubber mounts, but I think I'll run the stock mounts and monitor them until the break and then have the sturdy L bracket like your's welded on.

Thanks

Jeff

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Be careful welding on a gas tank. Have done it but didn't like it. Even if it is empty, it can explode.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

I always fill it with water, but not wet the area being soldered/welded and then ignite any vapors prior to starting. At worst, you may get a small woosh as you burn off what ever vapor is left, and since it is controlled and expected, it is relatively safe. If memory serves me, 1 gal gas, properly mixed with air, is equal to 8 sticks of dynamite.

Thanks,

Jeff

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Kinarfi, I am thinking you will be sorry if you do not move the one set of tabs rearward on the fuel tank, with the added resiviour and the longer filler neck it is almost certain to break. Also you can fill the tank with carbon deoxside while welding, that is what i did. Keep the bottle on it with very low flow and little preassure.

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Got my fuel tank in and mounted, 2332719980104110397OJqBCt_th.jpg, mounted it on 6 rubber standoffs and it seems good, had to stop the seat 1/4" from all the way back because the 1" lift made the filler neck hit the back of seat. Will run a ground wire from frame to tank tomorrow, may add a new fuel pickup line later.

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My sending unit stopped working a couple of months ago. Joyner would not replace but would sale me a new one, but only guaranty the new one for a month. The thing cost nearly $90. I said forget it. My dealer tried to repair and did sort of. Since I have a front hood that opens, I am installing a simple sight gauge or replacing with a simple sending unit with a float arm. I know of a couple other people who's gas gauges don't work. Personally this is one item that I would call over built/engineered and a piece of junk.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

I've been working on Rocmoc's gas gauge sender unit, waiting a part, and drew up the schematic for the Troopers with a front gas tank. Not to be disagreeable, but these things are very simple in their design and construction. Their biggest problem, IMO, is the red seal where the wires come out. The under seat gauges indicate by 1/4s and front tanks indicate by 1/8s.

2769810660104282158PweZQd_th.jpg

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I defer to you. This is not my area of expertise. I am just old school with a float, arm and a resistor kind of guy.

rocmoc n Mexico/AZ

Your's is fixed and boxed and will be coming back home tomorrow, or is it monyawna, since your in Mexico right now? :P

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I was talking to turbodude, Scott of Unleashed Motor Sports about gas tanks and he mentioned to me that the new tanks have a baffle in them between the gauge / filler pipe area and the rest of the tank, so I looked and of course, he's right. Interesting IMO. And since I couldn't stick my head in to look at the baffle, I stuck my camera lens in through the fuel gauge hole.20081219_06.jpg

More photos at http://s481.photobucket.com/albums/rr180/Kinarfi/

Played around with photobucket and think I like webshots better, just my opinion.

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Well damn, I have been building a clunk pick up for my Trooper's new gas tank and finally got around to cutting a hole to put the clunk in, I found another baffle in the middle of the tank, defeating my idea. Now I have to clean the metal out of the tank and patch the hole.

I have another idea though, and it should be easy build once I find something that will work as a float. Basically, it's an upside down carb float, when gas is present, the float holds the needle valve open, when you head down a steep hill or up, and all the gas moves to forward part of the tank and uncovers the outlet, there is no gas to hold the float up and the needle valve closes and the fuel pump has to pull fuel from the new front pickup which also has this setup. Ideally, you should not run out of gas going up or down when you're nearly empty.

Any input, anybody?

Jeff <_<

2714261180104282158BvmOZg_th.jpg

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I heard something rattling. Sounded just like a loose tank would. Sure enough, 3 of 4 tabs were broken and the last ready to go. To correct the problem I decided to put a 3/8" peice of plywood with tabs to prevent it from moving under the tank with about a 3/4" layer of polyethylene foam. I then put long threaded studs through the frames tank mount holes and bolted them in leaving mounted threaded studs sticking up. I then made some good solid straps to go over the tanks top. As I tighten it down the foam compresses and provides a solid non moving tank. This was pretty easy and makes for another solution that avoids welding for those that don't have the welder. I could have welded it but I was lazy. I was thinking, gosh, I got to drain the tank, pull all the fittings loose, make provisions so I don't blow myself and the tank up, redo it all and get things reprimed for starting. It was getting late and that sounded like a lot of work.

they quit showing fotos

You will also notice that I put little tabs on my seat belt eye bolts. This keeps the metal clip out of from under the seat when it's being closed. I just pull up on the straps when closing and the rest of the belt stays out to. Before the metal clips would fall down around the eye bolt and not clear always when pulling the straps up.



Lenny

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I like your straps, Plywood and foam under, when I replaced mine, I did quite a bit of hammering to take out some dents, but with the plywood resting on the frame, I think your set. That's kinda what I was going to do while I waited for my new tank, but then I just padded around and under it.

I like your seat belt anchors too.

Jeff

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Some assumptions for easy calculations, The gas tank is 19.5 front to back, and 7.0 deep, width does not apply.

Starting at 1/2 full, 3.5 inches of gas, as you go down hill at an angle of 19.75 degrees or more, your fuel outlet will uncover and your engine will die. As your fuel level decreases, the down hill angle decreases at which you'll run out of gas. :angry: It may take a minute or so but if it's a long hill or the pace slow, you'll run out of gas, I have, on 3 different occasions, once while one a dirt road when my fuel was less than 1/2, maybe a 1/4 or 1.75 inches.

Inches of Fuel---- Incline---TANK

0.25 --------------- 1.47

0.50 --------------- 2.94

0.75 --------------- 4.40

1.00 --------------- 5.86

1.25 --------------- 7.31

1.50 --------------- 8.75

1.75 --------------- 10.18---1/4 FULL

2.00 --------------- 11.59

2.25 --------------- 12.99

2.50 --------------- 14.38

2.75 --------------- 15.75

3.00 --------------- 17.10

3.25 --------------- 18.43

3.50 --------------- 19.75---1/2 FULL

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Occam's razor is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best."

I think my running out of fuel solution will be to have a hose from the front of the tank, a hose from the back of the tank, a hose from the fuel return and a hose to the pump all meet at a point under the gas tank. My thinking: if the engine needs 10 units of gas to run, the pump pulls 100 units from junction, the return line returns 90 units and the unpressurized lines from the tank flow 15 each, as long as the junction is lower than the gas level, the pump can't suck air from the uncovered outlet. This is very similar to Flatbed's solution, but no welding and the gas flows out side the tank. No valves, no moving parts, just gravity and gas flow, simple.

Jeff

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I think you might be on to something. As I think about mechanical solutions, they seem to stay complicated. Your in effect creating a low gas point that is lower than any part of the tank and will always draw off where ever the gas is available. Like it, nothing mechanical to foul things up. I think that is the way I'm going to do mine. Good thinking and keep up the good work.

Lenny

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Well, after my last post here, I went to take my after lunch 30 min. power nap. I really don't get any new power but If I'm lucky, I get to brainstorm a little during this time. I cut todays nap short as, thanks to Kinarfi, I couldn't stop thinking about his lower collection point tank idea. I kept picturing the trooper being on a 45 degree slope coupled with where the pickup would need to be to still be below the tanks gas level. That kept putting it somewhere inbetween the bottom plates and the ground. Not good. However I think I have got the answer. I don't have time do show you right now but will later this evening when I'll have time to do a couple of sketches I can post. Actually I'm not upset with Kinarif because of my nap time. He got me thinking and I got excited and well, I couldn't sleep anymore.

Later

Lenny

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aint it FUN, not as fun as testing the final version by going riding, but fun when you have 18" snow outside. All you need is to have junction below the level of the top of the gas. The only place I can see a short coming compared to stock, is going up steep hills with low gas, like on your way home after a long, hard day, Stock, all fuel to the rear for easy pick up, Modified, depending on where the junction is mounted, you'll run out of fuel while you still have some, not much though. At present, with tank raised 3/4" - 1" on rubber mounts, (REVISED) I plan to buy a cross and screw in some 5/16" barb fittings and then wrap it with some kind of foam. Easier than what I said before. :P

Damn, your wordyness is catching. :rolleyes::D Photos when I get it going.

Jeff

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