Kinarfi

Took some photos of my intended klunk and moved fuel pump. This gets you to the first of 13, some have comments typed on the photo. additional: go to http://www.mcmaster.com/ in find product box type Push-Button Valves. put 2 of the normally open, button to button with a lever in between and the lever can be as heavy or long as needs be with stops to limit the button travel. This could mounted anywhere, level not critical

Lenny said, I took the clunker and tube out and everything ran normal. It didn't seem to like the smaller line. You would think the 1/8" line should be sufficient -- 1 gallon every 72 seconds / 50 gallon per hour flowing through the return line. IMO 1/8 is on the shy side. A friend saw the holes in my old tank and told me that if you use isopropyl alcohol as cutting fluid, it cuts real clean, I was using a hole saw. Keep the idea of have the return line with a fuel / air separator being tied directly back to fuel pump line in mind, that makes the smaller orfices more acceptable. that may have made Lenny's clunk work OK. Hex or square tubing with multiple balls - no chance of the ball plugging the outlet, but now you the possibility of a ball stuck at each inlet again. Interesting page: http://www.pneumadyne.com/cirValves.cfm?cirControlID=8 The blue line is the valve attached to a weighted arm that hangs straight down. Just Rambling, still tinkering, Jeff

That's pretty much what I had in mind. Add these to the ends and tighten up the clearance between the tube and ball so the gas works to slow the ball down as it hits the valve. These are about $30 / pair with a .150 hole holley 6-519-2 Needle & Seat Kits http://www.holley.com/data/Catalogs/Holley/91.pdf Jeff

Cool, looking forward to your photos. Glad to be back home or sorry your not still vacationing? PM or post that site you mentioned earlier, with your pic. Jeff

If this can be made, I think it would work, no concern with the return, not sensitive to how high or how low it's mounted. Use a smooth bore tube with snug fitting steel ball that when it rolls to the lower end, it's weight seals up against the green seal, o-ring, and prevents air from being sucked into chamber. Two outlets so can't be stopped. As the hill gets steeper, the force of the ball on the seal get greater, sealing better. Still working on this post, I'll add a drawing later. Jeff Picture this, 1/2" ID brass pipe internally threaded with 1/4 nptX5/16 barb on each end, each of then drilled just enough for an O-ring to into, two 1/4" holes drilled into the pipe about 3/8 c-c apart and angle away from each other, grind off a fitting to match the pipe and braze or solder it over the holes and put another barb fitting on it.

I got to thinking, oh oh, about your air lock problem and my fuel flow test. I said I put the fuel line hose and the return line into a quart bottle and filled it with gas, started the engine and let everything stabilize, what I saw was all the air getting flushed out of the system, as it left the return hose, it would get sucked up by the fuel line and recirculated until it all escaped, this was happening because of the close proximity and limited space of the bottle. To correct this problem, I need to put an air/fuel separation chamber in my system, this could be as simple as a barbed Tee or as complex as chamber with barb fittings. IMO,Your's, Flatbed, should be OK, IMO. I still like the Idea of a good filter after the pump. see drawing. Jeff

One of my idiosyncrasies is to tear things apart, have you ever taken a fuel pump apart? They're interesting, the fuel enters and is taken up by a multivaned impeller and forced into this and channeled to that and fed into the motor stator and winding and past the commutator and brushes and out the output. The gasoline acts as coolant and lubricant for the pump motor. The air/fuel mix was correct and the brushes shouldn't be sparking (electrical background) anyway on this type of commutator and the burn would would be very small and (IMO) wouldn't cause any problem. Jeff

I'm actually following your lead you on this issue. Can you post a photo of your set up please? & thanks. Oh yea, one more question, should you filter the before or after the pump, I would think that you want to protect the injectors from the wear off the pump (carbon off the brushes, copper off the commutator, etc) as well any dirt or debris from the tank, or do we need to protect the pump from the dirt and debris, or should we put one of those small clear plastic screen filter in the loop also? Questions, questions, question, an obsessed person could go nuts !!!! Jeff Good nite! morning fuel flow - tank - plastic filter - fuel pump - fuel filter - pressure regulator - injectors ----- Just my idea

I still have the stock seat belts with the anti sub and the shoulder straps bagged and in the under driver seat storage compartment. When we go for a ride, we are constantly tightening the straps back up. Is this problem for others also. Strongly considering getting some from an auto salvage yard. Jeff

If I remember correctly, your proving some of my suspicions that caused me to follow Occam's razor and go simple, I kept seeing the possibility for valves not reopening and chambers not being able to refill or vapor lock. I did do some testing today. My tank is out of the Trooper, so I put a quart bottle on the floor under the vent canister and put the fuel line hose and the return line into it and filled it with gas, started the engine and let everything stabilize, topped off the bottle, then move the return line to another quart bottle, 18 second later, the 2nd bottle was full. That's 1 gallon every 72 seconds flowing through the return line . I wonder how much of the gas flow is used to cool the fuel pump? and by making it a closed loop and not running back into the tank, will it get hot? We'll see. Decided to move the fuel pump and mount it low to the panel behind the tank and also the fuel filter will be removed from the tank and mounted to the panel also. Jeff

I think you'll get more fuel than you figured, as soon as either tank out let uncovers, the fuel in the hose drains through the pipe until the extended line of the top of the gas level gets to the uphill inlet of the pipe and that is when you begin driving on pipe gas. And in my illustration, at 45 degrees, you have been running on pipe gas for just a few degrees at a !/4 tank and if the pipe was lower / smaller, you may still be on tank gas at 45 and 1/4 full. But then you should be at home or camp with that little fuel too. Jeff

aint it FUN, not as fun as testing the final version by going riding, but fun when you have 18" snow outside. All you need is to have junction below the level of the top of the gas. The only place I can see a short coming compared to stock, is going up steep hills with low gas, like on your way home after a long, hard day, Stock, all fuel to the rear for easy pick up, Modified, depending on where the junction is mounted, you'll run out of fuel while you still have some, not much though. At present, with tank raised 3/4" - 1" on rubber mounts, (REVISED) I plan to buy a cross and screw in some 5/16" barb fittings and then wrap it with some kind of foam. Easier than what I said before. Damn, your wordyness is catching. Photos when I get it going. Jeff

Occam's razor is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." I think my running out of fuel solution will be to have a hose from the front of the tank, a hose from the back of the tank, a hose from the fuel return and a hose to the pump all meet at a point under the gas tank. My thinking: if the engine needs 10 units of gas to run, the pump pulls 100 units from junction, the return line returns 90 units and the unpressurized lines from the tank flow 15 each, as long as the junction is lower than the gas level, the pump can't suck air from the uncovered outlet. This is very similar to Flatbed's solution, but no welding and the gas flows out side the tank. No valves, no moving parts, just gravity and gas flow, simple. Jeff

Beautiful, please post some photos of the way you put the hood hinge in and attached the hood to the hinge. Was the plastic already curved or did you just flex it into a curve. Thanks Jeff

Some assumptions for easy calculations, The gas tank is 19.5 front to back, and 7.0 deep, width does not apply. Starting at 1/2 full, 3.5 inches of gas, as you go down hill at an angle of 19.75 degrees or more, your fuel outlet will uncover and your engine will die. As your fuel level decreases, the down hill angle decreases at which you'll run out of gas. It may take a minute or so but if it's a long hill or the pace slow, you'll run out of gas, I have, on 3 different occasions, once while one a dirt road when my fuel was less than 1/2, maybe a 1/4 or 1.75 inches. Inches of Fuel---- Incline---TANK 0.25 --------------- 1.47 0.50 --------------- 2.94 0.75 --------------- 4.40 1.00 --------------- 5.86 1.25 --------------- 7.31 1.50 --------------- 8.75 1.75 --------------- 10.18---1/4 FULL 2.00 --------------- 11.59 2.25 --------------- 12.99 2.50 --------------- 14.38 2.75 --------------- 15.75 3.00 --------------- 17.10 3.25 --------------- 18.43 3.50 --------------- 19.75---1/2 FULL

I like your straps, Plywood and foam under, when I replaced mine, I did quite a bit of hammering to take out some dents, but with the plywood resting on the frame, I think your set. That's kinda what I was going to do while I waited for my new tank, but then I just padded around and under it. I like your seat belt anchors too. Jeff

Well damn, I have been building a clunk pick up for my Trooper's new gas tank and finally got around to cutting a hole to put the clunk in, I found another baffle in the middle of the tank, defeating my idea. Now I have to clean the metal out of the tank and patch the hole. I have another idea though, and it should be easy build once I find something that will work as a float. Basically, it's an upside down carb float, when gas is present, the float holds the needle valve open, when you head down a steep hill or up, and all the gas moves to forward part of the tank and uncovers the outlet, there is no gas to hold the float up and the needle valve closes and the fuel pump has to pull fuel from the new front pickup which also has this setup. Ideally, you should not run out of gas going up or down when you're nearly empty. Any input, anybody? Jeff

Thanks, I had some seals for motorcycle shocks that used the internal pressure to enhance the sealing action of the seal, I did look at my shock after asking and saw where holes came out. I appreciate your explanation.

Lenny, love your photos, fun, neat, interesting, do you have any photos of the installation and mounting? One question, the seal or seals where the shaft come out of the body, I thought the 'wiper' was the pressure seal and the other 'thing' was just a guide for the shaft, but is the 'guide' the pressure seal?, what are the four small holes in the guide for? Thanks Jeff

Lenny, Flatbed, Great stuff from both of you. Lenny, your not too wordy, good info.

You may feel like you're posting alone, but I bet EVERYONE is reading and taking notes, I am! Keep the photos coming. Jeff

Posted some more photos by Flatbed

Hope you all had a good Christmas day also, I got to watch the grandkids open their presents all SMILES

Terrific, thanks for the info, I'll be checking mine tomorrow to get familiar with what you told me. Thanks again, Jeff

Lenny, you say you got seals, did you get one for the bottom that looks like this? If so, I have some ideas, again, about a rebuild kit. Jeff