t2's first trip out - lots of questions/comments

[Petersen]

After going through both differentials and patching some cracks in the gas tank, the t2 finally made it out for its first trip. This was the first time ever being in a joyner and I was impressed with some things and found quite a few areas to address.

First is the noise which I expected from what I had heard. Lots of rattles to track down and correct. I think this will be fairly easy and just take time. I wanted to see if any of you had comments on the steering box cover that Lenny sells. I assume this will take out quite a bit of noise in the front end, and will it also improve how responsive the steering is?

Brakes??? Holy cats. Very disappointed here. Are they just this bad or I am missing something on how to fix/adjust? The pedal does not move at all when you push it and it takes its time coming to a stop. Or are they designed this way to prevent them from locking up?

I also have a question on tires. I assume some tires are 'softer' and make for a nicer ride in rocky terrain. Ours has radials on it and make for a super smooth ride on graded roads but have no cushion in them when you go over little rocks. Any comments on favorite tires for rocky high desert terrain?

How much do you play with the adjustment in the shocks? I think these are cranked down too much as well.

We are also going to move the air filter up using the shop vac hose and wand set up; lots of dust and heat in the engine area.

Any suggestions on the correct model of muffler to add on to reduce noise? Should I just search for what is compatible with a small vehicle with a 4 cyl. or is there more to it than that? I think the harley set up sounds cool, but I would prefer a quiet ride for how we use it.

Thanks again for everyones advice on my earlier posts. This board is essential for new joyner owners.

[Kinarfi]

After going through both differentials and patching some cracks in the gas tank, the t2 finally made it out for its first trip. This was the first time ever being in a joyner and I was impressed with some things and found quite a few areas to address.

First is the noise which I expected from what I had heard. Lots of rattles to track down and correct. I think this will be fairly easy and just take time. Wear ear plug or ear muffs, best if you aviation type so you can talk to your rider, I wanted to see if any of you had comments on the steering box cover that Lenny sells. I assume this will take out quite a bit of noise in the front end, and will it also improve how responsive the steering is?

Lenny's set up works well

Brakes??? Holy cats. Very disappointed here. Are they just this bad or I am missing something on how to fix/adjust? The pedal does not move at all when you push it and it takes its time coming to a stop. Or are they designed this way to prevent them from locking up?

Brakes are poor

I also have a question on tires. I assume some tires are 'softer' and make for a nicer ride in rocky terrain. Ours has radials on it and make for a super smooth ride on graded roads but have no cushion in them when you go over little rocks. Any comments on favorite tires for rocky high desert terrain?

10 psi up front 12 - 15 psi in the rear

How much do you play with the adjustment in the shocks? I think these are cranked down too much as well.

I dumped all the nitrogen out of the fronts and backed off the preload all the way and replaced the rears

We are also going to move the air filter up using the shop vac hose and wand set up; lots of dust and heat in the engine area.

Any suggestions on the correct model of muffler to add on to reduce noise? Should I just search for what is compatible with a small vehicle with a 4 cyl. or is there more to it than that? I think the harley set up sounds cool, but I would prefer a quiet ride for how we use it.

Harley works great and is very quiet and chromy

Thanks again for everyones advice on my earlier posts. This board is essential for new joyner owners.

[Petersen]

Thanks for the input.

I believe the tires on it are the general grabbers. Will these work at the low psi without having issues with the beed staying set?

I was also wondering if anyone has had issues with the coil on a shock rubbing on the body of the shock. Three of them have plenty of clearance, but the right rear is rubbing and makes a loud squeak when it does so. Nothing looks noticeably bent but ??? Is it possible to loosen the coil and try rotating it a little before tightening back down that may correct it?

I can also add, the fuel tank on this t2 is definitely not factory. The fill spout is in the side of the dash and the tank goes under the hood with kind of a sideways "L" shape so part of it sits right in the middle under the hood. I think it holds about seven gallons. A couple of cracks were patched in it and there is still a little leak coming out the top from where the wire goes into the sending unit. It was not mounted with any rubber material and just metal bolted to the tank. With this, was it vibrations that caused stress cracks??

Thanks again.

[rocmoc]

I can also add, the fuel tank on this t2 is definitely not factory. The fill spout is in the side of the dash and the tank goes under the hood with kind of a sideways "L" shape so part of it sits right in the middle under the hood. I think it holds about seven gallons. A couple of cracks were patched in it and there is still a little leak coming out the top from where the wire goes into the sending unit. It was not mounted with any rubber material and just metal bolted to the tank. With this, was it vibrations that caused stress cracks??

Thanks again.

You have one of the first 50 T2s as I do, 2008 model. They had the fuel tank up front and are a pain to fill with fuel. I turned my filler tube on the bolt mount at the tank so the filler tube comes up thu the top of the dash. Long-term I am going to cap the existing filler tube at the tank and put a new filler tube at the location of the sending unit. The sending unit will last you a couple of years if you are lucky. The sending unit is different from the later T2s, longer, and are not inter-changeable. BUT eye have never had the fuel issues the tank under the seat have. My tank has never cracked or leaked, lucky eye guess. I have been putting rubber washers in a lot of locations including the diff mounts to remove some of the vibration & stress cracking. There was a lot of upgrades that occurred after the first 50. Most important is make sure your driveline was changed out from u-joint to CV joint. If not failure WILL occur. Also the rear frame mount for the rear diff WILL fail, needs to be replaced with better steel, design & weld. More later.

rocmoc n AZ

[Kinarfi]

Thanks for the input.

I believe the tires on it are the general grabbers. Will these work at the low psi without having issues with the beed staying set?

Yes, I run general grabber and I like them, I had one side wall puncture lately that was cause by a broken tree laying in the road, thought I would miss it, but didn't, it would have ruined any tire, The pressures I gave you are what I run 8-10 front 10-15 rear.

Thanks again.

[Petersen]

You have one of the first 50 T2s as I do, 2008 model. They had the fuel tank up front and are a pain to fill with fuel. I turned my filler tube on the bolt mount at the tank so the filler tube comes up thu the top of the dash. Long-term I am going to cap the existing filler tube at the tank and put a new filler tube at the location of the sending unit. The sending unit will last you a couple of years if you are lucky. The sending unit is different from the later T2s, longer, and are not inter-changeable. BUT eye have never had the fuel issues the tank under the seat have. My tank has never cracked or leaked, lucky eye guess. I have been putting rubber washers in a lot of locations including the diff mounts to remove some of the vibration & stress cracking. There was a lot of upgrades that occurred after the first 50. Most important is make sure your driveline was changed out from u-joint to CV joint. If not failure WILL occur. Also the rear frame mount for the rear diff WILL fail, needs to be replaced with better steel, design & weld. More later.

rocmoc n AZ

It still has the u-joint driveline. I assume that these are no longer under the warranty with joyner with all the changes. I will start looking around for one. I defintiely don't want to end up walking out of somewhere because of u-joints failing. Thanks.

[2scoops]

It still has the u-joint driveline. I assume that these are no longer under the warranty with joyner with all the changes. I will start looking around for one. I defintiely don't want to end up walking out of somewhere because of u-joints failing. Thanks.

Well, I hope you got a great deal on it with the intent of putting money into it. I bought mine for $5k knowing I would need to put at least $2-3k into it on improvements. I say that because I would spend a chunk of money on new shocks. If you do this, 70% of your squeeks, creeks, & rattles will go away; AND, you won't worry about new/softer tires anymore--shocks will take care of both.

I have about $8500 into it now, and I have a rock crawling, desert cruising, rocky mountain trails machine. However, I still have plenty of mods on the list (better master cylinders, front 2x4 fix, swaybar, cams, supercharger, etc, etc, etc?).

First though, you must get rid of that rear u-joint shaft. I am supprised yours still has one. Was it in storage for a long time?

Definately do the filter/intake.

Lenny's steering kit is a huge improvement. Best thing is it is adjustable.

Silverbullets fuel controller is a nice improvement in torque, but gas mileage goes down. Mine gets about the same as my buddys RZR S now.

Brakes:

The reason for the stiff pedal is because the master cylinders are oversized in comparison to the calipers. They are putting out a lot of volume instead of pressure. If we went to smaller bore master cylinders we would see a great improvement. There would be more pressure directed to the calipers. Your pedal would go in more and you would experience more grab/feel in the brakes. Or, you can match the master cylinders with larger brakes, but really you would need automotive size calipers and they just wouldn't fit. Lenny has added two trooper brake calipers in the front, and he says his stops great. He has doubled his caliper piston volume and the brake pad surface.

I have added Brembo brakes to the front of mine. This is a custom mod. The pistons on these are the same size of the Troopers, but there are two pistons instead of one. The braking did improve, but it is still not where I want it. Although I am pushing the same volume as Lenny, he has twice the brake pad contact as I. The only downside to his is added weight. I am looking into possible master cylinder options now.

[Petersen]

Thanks 2scoops.

Yeah, it was a good price and we knew there would be issues, but the only thing we were told was it had problems overheating (which after getting the air lock fixed we have not had issues with).

I do believe it was in storage for a while. It only had 280 miles on it and I know the odometer works because we put about 70 on it Friday.

One issue I have not mentioned yet is that the relay for the fan is also toast but there is a direct switch for the fan to turn it on and off. Is this unique to the first 50 or all troopers?

The trooper is definitely going to be an ongoing project for a while. The shocks are definitely an expensive upgrade but it sounds like all that have done it have positive things to say.

[ricksrb]

Thanks 2scoops.

Yeah, it was a good price and we knew there would be issues, but the only thing we were told was it had problems overheating (which after getting the air lock fixed we have not had issues with).

I do believe it was in storage for a while. It only had 280 miles on it and I know the odometer works because we put about 70 on it Friday.

One issue I have not mentioned yet is that the relay for the fan is also toast but there is a direct switch for the fan to turn it on and off. Is this unique to the first 50 or all troopers?

The trooper is definitely going to be an ongoing project for a while. The shocks are definitely an expensive upgrade but it sounds like all that have done it have positive things to say.

More good advice from 2scoops.Squeeks and rattles you can live with while your enjoying it.Fix em one x one while having fun.I havent heard of a manual switch for the fan on any models,could have been added by the previous owner when the relay went.

[2scoops]

Thanks 2scoops.

Yeah, it was a good price and we knew there would be issues, but the only thing we were told was it had problems overheating (which after getting the air lock fixed we have not had issues with).

I do believe it was in storage for a while. It only had 280 miles on it and I know the odometer works because we put about 70 on it Friday.

One issue I have not mentioned yet is that the relay for the fan is also toast but there is a direct switch for the fan to turn it on and off. Is this unique to the first 50 or all troopers?

The trooper is definitely going to be an ongoing project for a while. The shocks are definitely an expensive upgrade but it sounds like all that have done it have positive things to say.

Wow, 280 miles in nothing.

My fan stopped working a short while after I bought it. I read on here to upgrade from a 10 amp fuse to a 15 amp--no problems since.

The direct switch to the fan does not sound factory. Is there a fuse between the switch & the fan? I would add one if there is not (15 amp). I believe all Trooper fans run constantly if the engine is running. So, your set up should work as long as you don't forget to switch it on.

Well, we all have reasons for buying our Troopers. Mine was potential & price. My friend has $19k into his RZR S and there is only 1 thing his machine clearly exceeds mine in. That is accelleration while climbing a hill since he has a CVT, and I have to downshift and keep my machine at high RPM's. We are pretty much stuck in our powerband. One nice thing about ours over CVT's is that when he approaches a steep obstical he has to completely stop & shift into low, where we can keep momentum & down shift. If I ever get around to adding a supercharger, then the only thing the RZR S will be better at is gas mileage. I hope to even give the RZR XP a run for its money. Unless I put the Trooper on a serious diet, I estimate I will need about 120 hp to do that.

[Guest Lenny]

Sorry but the stock Troopers are only about 56 Hp, not 86. That is actual dyno numbers. My dyno guy said he would be supprised to see 100 Hp out of my supercharged engine. To be honest, I am now hopping to see 90 Hp. Don't let that discourage you. Mine still runs a lot stronger then a stock Trooper and currently I'm getting, actual on the dyno, 70 Hp. I know this should stir up some postings but the facts are what they are. A typical supercharger installation on a car at about 8-10 pounds of boost, will give about 30% more power when running 91 octane gas. I'm getting about 10 pounds of boost. If you want to go to high strength engine rods, pistons, crank, much higher boost and racing fuel, aftermarket computer, etc. you can get more, a lot more. My dyno guy felt he can get another 20% power out of mine and I'm already a lot stronger then a stock Trooper. Mines not fully tuned yet as I had to correct a fuel issue and currently have a ignition problem causing missing. That should be resolved soon then back to the dyno. Think about it, using the same ratio 1182cc, at 90Hp, that would be about equivalant to the new Corvette output per cc. Forget Hp and think proformance, Mine is going to scream and yours can too.

Lenny

[Petersen]

Wow, 280 miles in nothing.

My fan stopped working a short while after I bought it. I read on here to upgrade from a 10 amp fuse to a 15 amp--no problems since.

The direct switch to the fan does not sound factory. Is there a fuse between the switch & the fan? I would add one if there is not (15 amp). I believe all Trooper fans run constantly if the engine is running. So, your set up should work as long as you don't forget to switch it on.

Well, we all have reasons for buying our Troopers. Mine was potential & price. My friend has $19k into his RZR S and there is only 1 thing his machine clearly exceeds mine in. That is accelleration while climbing a hill since he has a CVT, and I have to downshift and keep my machine at high RPM's. We are pretty much stuck in our powerband. One nice thing about ours over CVT's is that when he approaches a steep obstical he has to completely stop & shift into low, where we can keep momentum & down shift. If I ever get around to adding a supercharger, then the only thing the RZR S will be better at is gas mileage. I hope to even give the RZR XP a run for its money. Unless I put the Trooper on a serious diet, I estimate I will need about 120 hp to do that.

The manual switch is not factory. It was added in because where the wiring plugs into the relay it had melted a bit, and did not work any more so a switch to run the fan manually was added in. My dad's friend fixed the shorted out wiring for the factory stuff and it worked good for us about twenty miles into the trip and we noticed the trooper heating up and sure enough the fan had quit working on us. The relay was super hot and melting the plug again. We unplugged it and went back to the manual switch.

[2scoops]

Sorry but the stock Troopers are only about 56 Hp, not 86. That is actual dyno numbers. My dyno guy said he would be supprised to see 100 Hp out of my supercharged engine. To be honest, I am now hopping to see 90 Hp. Don't let that discourage you. Mine still runs a lot stronger then a stock Trooper and currently I'm getting, actual on the dyno, 70 Hp. I know this should stir up some postings but the facts are what they are. A typical supercharger installation on a car at about 8-10 pounds of boost, will give about 30% more power when running 91 octane gas. I'm getting about 10 pounds of boost. If you want to go to high strength engine rods, pistons, crank, much higher boost and racing fuel, aftermarket computer, etc. you can get more, a lot more. My dyno guy felt he can get another 20% power out of mine and I'm already a lot stronger then a stock Trooper. Mines not fully tuned yet as I had to correct a fuel issue and currently have a ignition problem causing missing. That should be resolved soon then back to the dyno. Think about it, using the same ratio 1182cc, at 90Hp, that would be about equivalant to the new Corvette output per cc. Forget Hp and think proformance, Mine is going to scream and yours can too.

Lenny

Lenny,

Let me be more specific. I was talking 120 crank hp. I would be more than happy with 90 rwhp. Factor in a 25-30% horsepower loss to the rear wheels and we are right at 120 crank hp. The factory RZR XP puts out 88 crank hp and 65 rwhp which ends up being about a 26% hp loss. I would imaging our Troopers have even more loss to the rear wheels (I could be wrong). I would factor at least a 30% loss for ours. I figure by adding the fuel controller I am back to the 85 crank hp as advertised. That would leave me with 60 rwhp. Based off the seat of my pants calculations and running with my friends RZR S & RZR 4 I think these are pretty accurate figures.

So, your Trooper is putting out about 100 crank hp. That is impressive. I would be happy with that! Did you get any torque readings?

[Guest Lenny]

Lenny,

Let me be more specific. I was talking 120 crank hp. I would be more than happy with 90 rwhp. Factor in a 25-30% horsepower loss to the rear wheels and we are right at 120 crank hp. The factory RZR XP puts out 88 crank hp and 65 rwhp which ends up being about a 26% hp loss. I would imaging our Troopers have even more loss to the rear wheels (I could be wrong). I would factor at least a 30% loss for ours. I figure by adding the fuel controller I am back to the 85 crank hp as advertised. That would leave me with 60 rwhp. Based off the seat of my pants calculations and running with my friends RZR S & RZR 4 I think these are pretty accurate figures.

So, your Trooper is putting out about 100 crank hp. That is impressive. I would be happy with that! Did you get any torque readings?

The readings I have are at the rear wheel as you figured and there is drive train loss, also as you said. I didn't think that the loss would be that high. What I see on the internet for typical car loss it's about 17%. Then again the Troopers drive train is so poor that it probably looses a bunch more. My dyno guy said that the new Corvette has only about 10-11% loss. I do have torque readings but again they will go up also maybe 20%. Tight now, my torque curve is showing 85-86. The graph didn't show a seperate value column for torque but appears to use the Hp column. I'm assumoing that it is showing in Pounds per foot. The torque curve istarts at about 2800 rpms where is show about 76-77. So it is quite flat from 2800 to 5800 rpms, only 9-10 different. When I go back to the dyno, I'll ask if he can show from 1000 rpms up. Right now need to get my spark corrected.

Kinarfi, maybe these last couple of post should be moved to a new topic called "Engine Horse Power". You decide and thanks Jeff.

Lenny

[Anylizer]

most CVT type trans systems loose about 60% through the belt drive system... some better some worse. This is where the so called "clutch kits" get improvements!

[Anylizer]

Petersen..... sent you an e-mail & PM.... I have 1 upgraded CV style drive line left! 775-753-8223

[rocmoc]

I have & have had a ton of High Performance cars & race cars. The horsepower output is plane pitiful from the Chery engine. Only from China could a engine have so little hp/cc in today's market.

My hope when I purchased in 08 was aftermarket would makeup the difference but sadly that does not seem to be a reality. Yes I know there are a few attempts but coming from the racing world, the target has not yet been hit! If they ever import the Chery car or Chery gets into the race world, we may see a real product. KIA has done just this. They are now VERY active in the Rally World and their little 4 bangers are producing nearly 400 hp. This is a real HIT on the target!

JMHO!

rocmoc n AZ

[Guest Lenny]

I have & have had a ton of High Performance cars & race cars. The horsepower output is plane pitiful from the Chery engine. Only from China could a engine have so little hp/cc in today's market.

My hope when I purchased in 08 was aftermarket would makeup the difference but sadly that does not seem to be a reality. Yes I know there are a few attempts but coming from the racing world, the target has not yet been hit! If they ever import the Chery car or Chery gets into the race world, we may see a real product. KIA has done just this. They are now VERY active in the Rally World and their little 4 bangers are producing nearly 400 hp. This is a real HIT on the target!

JMHO!

rocmoc n AZ

How many cc are the KIAs?

Lenny

[rocmoc]

How many cc are the KIAs?

Lenny

http://www.kia.com/#/motorsports

http://www.kssmotorsports.com/index_sunbelt.aspx

I have sent Sunbelt Engines an email for a little info. They are the builders of the Kia racing engines. Aftermarket in a big way, maybe they would do a Chery engine!

rocmoc n AZ

[silverbullet]

Silverbullet

The early Troopers that came out had a brake disc that were to small. They up graded to bigger rotors and a new master cyl. and that fixed the problem.With the new up date they worked ok.

[silverbullet]

silverbullet

Lenny that dyno test you ran sounds great.Thats a big improvement over the stock H/P.Your still using a basic stock motor with a little work done to it..After you get the bugs out it will run a little stronger i bet..

You will be able to kick most sidexside butts. What else coud you ask for!

[ricksrb]

silverbullet

Lenny that dyno test you ran sounds great.Thats a big improvement over the stock H/P.Your still using a basic stock motor with a little work done to it..After you get the bugs out it will run a little stronger i bet..

You will be able to kick most sidexside butts. What else coud you ask for!

what do you mean "after he gets the bugs out it will kick most sidexside butts",the stock trooper already does that.just think what other butts it will kick afterwards.