Trooper cranks but wont start

[ricksrb]

thanks for all the info guys. i,ll take your suggestions and try them. the group i ride with are big into dessert racing. infact we host uor own race 2nd weekend in august. so we'll get this figured out, when we do i'll be sure to post it. by the way we don,t have a utv class for race YET.

I had the same problem and might have posted such here.I noticed after engine warmup idle would drop to about 750-800 rpm and manual says 950 +/- 50.I adjusted to 950 and ever since no need to give it gas while starting,it starts right up with the turn of the key.I am sure that is not going to solve everyones problem but it worked it my case.

[Kinarfi]

I think I found the problem with my starting problem, One the starter didn't always engage and it was hard to start. The starter had a not tight enough connection for the solenoid. Some how, oil got sucked into the intake manifold and it wetted everything from the butterfly in. Took the air bypass plunger (or what ever it's called) and cleaned it with denatured alcohol and managed to move the plunger by hand, hope I didn't ruin it. and cleaned up the throttle position sensor and clean the air temp sensor (if that is what it is) and washed the throttle body thoroughly with soap and water, The ugly part was the "mud" on the filter side of the butterfly valve, I had cleaned the air tubes earlier after putting my snorkel on (I highly recommend snorkels to every one to get the intake up into clean air instead of the dusty area around the engine), but didn't get inside the throttle body at that time. The air tubes were still spotless. Any one have any ideas of how the oil gets sucked in? I think it comes in through the little tube that goes to the top of the valve cover. Didn't get everything back together yet, tomorrow, will post results.

Question about starter solenoid, does the lead going to the solenoid supply the + power or the - ground to activate it. All the starters I've dealt with previously received + power, it appear troopers receive a ground to activate.

Thanks

Kinarfi

PS fear not about taking the throttle body and stuff apart, it goes back together very simply. I was quite worried about getting into it.

[Guest Lenny]

I think I found the problem with my starting problem, One the starter didn't always engage and it was hard to start. The starter had a not tight enough connection for the solenoid. Some how, oil got sucked into the intake manifold and it wetted everything from the butterfly in. Took the air bypass plunger (or what ever it's called) and cleaned it with denatured alcohol and managed to move the plunger by hand, hope I didn't ruin it. and cleaned up the throttle position sensor and clean the air temp sensor (if that is what it is) and washed the throttle body thoroughly with soap and water, The ugly part was the "mud" on the filter side of the butterfly valve, I had cleaned the air tubes earlier after putting my snorkel on (I highly recommend snorkels to every one to get the intake up into clean air instead of the dusty area around the engine), but didn't get inside the throttle body at that time. The air tubes were still spotless. Any one have any ideas of how the oil gets sucked in? I think it comes in through the little tube that goes to the top of the valve cover. Didn't get everything back together yet, tomorrow, will post results.

Question about starter solenoid, does the lead going to the solenoid supply the + power or the - ground to activate it. All the starters I've dealt with previously received + power, it appear troopers receive a ground to activate.

Thanks

Kinarfi

PS fear not about taking the throttle body and stuff apart, it goes back together very simply. I was quite worried about getting into it.

Went to look at mine but then remembered that I have all my wiring torn out so couldn't tell. Can't you hook 12v to the starter motor and see if it engauges. If you have the starter out, you could maybe hook 12v to it to see if it turns the right direction. if not, reverse the leads. The engine turns clockwise when looking at it from the rear. Here is a statement rockmoc made back some time ago when he was putting his engine back into the Trooper. "Had a little problem of two of the wires on the starter reversed. What a pain, had to pull the intake manifold to access the wires on the starter. Flipped the wires, reinstalled the intake. Filled the trans with Royal Purple. Connected the battery and turn the key. She came to life." All I could tell from my wiring harness is that the 12v + goes to the outter terminal on the starter. (other terminal is next to engine). Dispite rocmoc's warning, I didn't mark my wires the best when I removed them. Used a pointed marker on plastic tape. Now it's hard to read and didn't mark some wires figuring they were intuitive. While I was wrong about the intuitive part and typical of a hiper person, got in a hurry so didn't take the time to mark them better. I start to rewire next week, that should be a challenge.

Lenny

Lenny

[ricksrb]

I think I found the problem with my starting problem, One the starter didn't always engage and it was hard to start. The starter had a not tight enough connection for the solenoid. Some how, oil got sucked into the intake manifold and it wetted everything from the butterfly in. Took the air bypass plunger (or what ever it's called) and cleaned it with denatured alcohol and managed to move the plunger by hand, hope I didn't ruin it. and cleaned up the throttle position sensor and clean the air temp sensor (if that is what it is) and washed the throttle body thoroughly with soap and water, The ugly part was the "mud" on the filter side of the butterfly valve, I had cleaned the air tubes earlier after putting my snorkel on (I highly recommend snorkels to every one to get the intake up into clean air instead of the dusty area around the engine), but didn't get inside the throttle body at that time. The air tubes were still spotless. Any one have any ideas of how the oil gets sucked in? I think it comes in through the little tube that goes to the top of the valve cover. Didn't get everything back together yet, tomorrow, will post results.

Question about starter solenoid, does the lead going to the solenoid supply the + power or the - ground to activate it. All the starters I've dealt with previously received + power, it appear troopers receive a ground to activate.

Thanks

Kinarfi

PS fear not about taking the throttle body and stuff apart, it goes back together very simply. I was quite worried about getting into it.

If you dont get your answer by the time i get home this afternoon i will check mine out.

[Kinarfi]

Question about starter solenoid, does the lead going to the solenoid supply the + power or the - ground to activate it. All the starters I've dealt with previously received + power, it appear troopers receive a ground to activate.

Thanks

Kinarfi

I hate it when I make stupid mistakes and then post them as if I knew what I was doing, I pulled the solenoid off the starter and put it back on 180 degrees off.

Ignore my comments about the power to activate being - , it is + and I have to pull my starter again and fix my stupid mistake. Damn, I hate doing stupid stuff, and then having to fix it.

Thanks

Kinarfi, the dumb shit.

[ricksrb]

I hate it when I make stupid mistakes and then post them as if I knew what I was doing, I pulled the solenoid off the starter and put it back on 180 degrees off.

Ignore my comments about the power to activate being - , it is + and I have to pull my starter again and fix my stupid mistake. Damn, I hate doing stupid stuff, and then having to fix it.

Thanks

Kinarfi, the dumb shit.

If I did not know better I would say you must have taken lessons from me..(LOL)

[kps_randy]

Hi all,

I've had this same exact problem with my '08 trooper. I would turn the key to let the system prime (fan and gauges reset) then crank it. The starter seemed to be working strong but would not start unless I gave it some gas. After the engine started it would bog out a little then idle fine. I noticed my WATER TEMPURATURE GAUGE was acting up...sometimes it would come on and other times it would be off. I called Joyner and they suggested replacing my WATER TEMPURATURE SENSOR. So I bought it for $20, replaced it, and no more problems. My Trooper had a little trouble starting the first few times after replacing the sensor.....I didn't give it any gas...it started, but kind of bogged a little then idled fine and ran fine. After a few times it's like new again...but it could be that the fuel was a few months old too. The sensor was supposedly giving the computer false signals. Hope this helps..

Randy

[Chalkstk]

I'm going to go out on the limb and sujest you try something. Set your fuel regulator pressure to be up about 5 or 10 pounds. When you first start a engine, it want's an extra shot of fuel. The engine is cold, the mixture is not quite as explosive. When it's first cranked, you do crank it don't you with the crank handle on the front, the engine can accumulate fuel until it has enough to start. Just maybe, the engine falls behind in fuel just after it starts, but, once past this point, everything goes fine. The air fuel senser sees plenty of fuel so doesn't increase it. With higher pressure, the engine will get more fuel at the start but the computer will pull it back once running.

This should be an interesting test. If you try it, let us know. It's just a non educated thought, as we say winging it.

If it doesn't idle good after it's running, it could be the throttle body idle air bypass valve sticking. If so, it needs removing and cleaning. I had to do that with mine but for a different reason. Mine wouldn't idle down as the valve was stuck too far open.

Lenny

Lenny,

I have and 800cc 3cyl with high idle problem.......real hgh, 3800 RPM. Where is that by-pass valve? I have to start/stop at least a half dozen times and then it idles fine. If it sits for couple of days, it high idles all over again. MAS sensor has been changed.

Thx,

Chalkstk

[Guest Lenny]

Lenny,

I have and 800cc 3cyl with high idle problem.......real hgh, 3800 RPM. Where is that by-pass valve? I have to start/stop at least a half dozen times and then it idles fine. If it sits for couple of days, it high idles all over again. MAS sensor has been changed.

Thx,

Chalkstk

The idle bypass valve is the same as the IAC (idle air control) and it's on the throttle body. There are two sensors on the throttle body, one is the throttle position sensor, the other the IAC. The throttle position sensor actuates when you open the butterfly valve. The IAC has no mechanical hookup to the throttle body except for it's own mechanical function.

Lenny

[krusstygun]

i had a electrical problem with mine

found that the conectors under the ecu were full of green death and a couple of weather shields had pulled out .

with further inspection the a couple of wires had coroded apart .

i just removed all those conectors and shrinked wrapped them

[Kinarfi]

This is the exact same problem I have, First start of the day is a real pain. I do believe the problem too rich, but don't know for sure. Tried starting fluid, just made it worse.

Another problem I'm having, is the starter doesn't always spin, put a test light on the starter and it appears that the solenoid is not making contact all the time. May have to figure out a method to let the solenoid pull in the starter and a parallel electrical connection, or just keep clicking until it makes contact.

Kinarfi

[Jarrad]

This is the exact same problem I have, First start of the day is a real pain. I do believe the problem too rich, but don't know for sure. Tried starting fluid, just made it worse.

Another problem I'm having, is the starter doesn't always spin, put a test light on the starter and it appears that the solenoid is not making contact all the time. May have to figure out a method to let the solenoid pull in the starter and a parallel electrical connection, or just keep clicking until it makes contact.

Kinarfi

Kinarfi You used a test light but have you ran a volt meter to see the exact voltage to yhe green start wire? I usually hotshot it to the battery with a relay and use the green wire to trigger the relay and 99% of the time it cures the click click start problem.. the voltage has a long way to go up front then back to starter for such a small gauge wire

[ksimpsy]

Kinarfi You used a test light but have you ran a volt meter to see the exact voltage to yhe green start wire? I usually hotshot it to the battery with a relay and use the green wire to trigger the relay and 99% of the time it cures the click click start problem.. the voltage has a long way to go up front then back to starter for such a small gauge wire

I have been having the same problem with the click click start I've tried a bigger battery which helped some then finally a new starter which works most of the time until the battery is down below 12v. I would like to try your relay method but am kinda dense when it comes to the electrical end of things especially relays.

[BeeZee62]

I had the same problem with my starter last year. I figured that as I attempted to use my Trooper as a submarine once, that with all the water etc in the starter maybe there was some corrosion. I took the starter and solenoid off, cleaned everything up and bench tested it all before reinstalling. Everything worked fine, until it was reinstalled and the same problem. I even used a screwdriver a couple times, across the two terminals on the solenoid to get it running.

Not too long after thinking I had it all sorted out, the ignition went dead. After tracing and testing every wire, I found the problem was with the master power swtich ... so I bypassed the master power switch and everything worked fine for a while. The starter started acting up again .. so I just replaced it with a new one. I still have the master power switch by-passed though .. just have to make sure all electricals are turned off when I'm done for the day.

The last time my starter acted up the Trooper was just coming out of the shop at Mudslinger Motorsports. Trevor at Mudslinger had a starter in stock and $260 later, I had a new starter. Haven't had a single problem since.

[Kinarfi]

Kinarfi You used a test light but have you ran a volt meter to see the exact voltage to yhe green start wire? I usually hotshot it to the battery with a relay and use the green wire to trigger the relay and 99% of the time it cures the click click start problem.. the voltage has a long way to go up front then back to starter for such a small gauge wire

I'll put a volt meter on it tomorrow and post the results.

Like I said, I tried starter fluid sprayed into the hole closed up by a rubber plug on the other end of the manifold from butterfly, and now I don't idle, dies every time I step on the clutch and don't hold the throttle open a little. I'M STILL GOING TO THE JAMBOREE!!!!!!

Gotta show off my power steering that Lenny and I have built. Would I be out of line to charge for the pleasure of trying my steering out???? yah, it was just a thought.

Kinarfi.

[Kinarfi]

As suggested, I put a voltmeter on my starter solenoid, interesting, with my meter on battery term and ground, when it cranked over, I got 9.8 - 10 volts. When it didn't crank, the voltage was 8.5, can't explain that yet. Then I jumpered from battery to solenoid and it never failed to crank and the voltage was 10.5.

Guess I'll either put relay or something back there close to the solenoid and starter.

Kinarfi

[Jarrad]

As suggested, I put a voltmeter on my starter solenoid, interesting, with my meter on battery term and ground, when it cranked over, I got 9.8 - 10 volts. When it didn't crank, the voltage was 8.5, can't explain that yet. Then I jumpered from battery to solenoid and it never failed to crank and the voltage was 10.5.

Guess I'll either put relay or something back there close to the solenoid and starter.

Kinarfi

I do that alot.. call it hot shotting the starter.. use the original wire to trip the 30amp automotive relay and use a 10 guage wire from batter to relay then to starter.. less voltage drop and will start everytime

On a side note.. relaying the fan with a 10 guage and using the original fan wire to trip the relay cures the melted fuse syndrom they suffer

As far as explaining it K the voltage has a long way to go through a small guage wire, think from battery to front then back again.. there is a lot of resistance there and will cause the voltage drop.. Thats why we use a AC voltage in our houses<thanks Tesla> not a DC like Edison tryied.. because a DC voltage tends to drop voltage the further it travels

Jarrad

[Kinarfi]

I do that alot.. call it hot shotting the starter.. use the original wire to trip the 30amp automotive relay and use a 10 guage wire from batter to relay then to starter.. less voltage drop and will start everytime

On a side note.. relaying the fan with a 10 guage and using the original fan wire to trip the relay cures the melted fuse syndrom they suffer

As far as explaining it K the voltage has a long way to go through a small guage wire, think from battery to front then back again.. there is a lot of resistance there and will cause the voltage drop.. Thats why we use a AC voltage in our houses<thanks Tesla> not a DC like Edison tryied.. because a DC voltage tends to drop voltage the further it travels

Jarrad

Got my interposing relay, that's the fancy industrial name for 'hot shotting', in today, used a 30 amp N.O. relay and #12 Thhn wire from the battery disconnect to the solenoid and it hasn't failed to crank yet, YES!!!!!

Did some remembering about the solenoid also, they are set up so that when you apply, the power goes through two coils, one going to ground directly and the other through the starter, so that after it pulls in, the one going through the starter gets bypassed and the one to ground holds it in, It take a lot more power to pull a solenoid in than to hold it in and the one through the starter pull a lot more power than the one to ground. And if you ever think about pulling the solenoid off, make the terminal are well marked so you can put it back on correctly, if you put it back upside down, it will still work for a while, but your pulling power through continuously and while I didn't burn mine up when I did this, it did get hot & smelly, not right away, but an hour or hours later.

Kinarfi

[Kinarfi]

I took the throttle body off and turned the key on and watched the IAC to see if it was moving and it is NOT, didn't go to the start position. I'm also turning the aluminum part of the intake manifold up side down so the throttle body is forward and above the engine.

I would post some photos, but my wife took the camera with her to see our son.

Is there any way to test these things? It has 51 ohm between the two out side pins and same for the two middle pins.

Does anyone have an IAC I can buy, beg, borrow or steal? Guess stealing might not work. How much are they?

Kinarfi

[Guest Lenny]

I took the throttle body off and turned the key on and watched the IAC to see if it was moving and it is NOT, didn't go to the start position. I'm also turning the aluminum part of the intake manifold up side down so the throttle body is forward and above the engine.

I would post some photos, but my wife took the camera with her to see our son.

Is there any way to test these things? It has 51 ohm between the two out side pins and same for the two middle pins.

Does anyone have an IAC I can buy, beg, borrow or steal? Guess stealing might not work. How much are they?

Kinarfi

Check these sites.

Checking your IAC valve - aka fixing P1506 idle issues - The Ford Focus Forum | Powered by Focaljet

IAC signal from ECM check? - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards (scroll down)

VERY high idle after replacing bad IAC Valve. HELP!!! - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

Also unscrew the TPS (throttle position sensor), Leave it in place and slightly rotate it one way or the other when trying to start. Just a thought.

Lenny

[rocmoc]

Kinarfi,

Because you have found corrosion in a couple of components, I would guess that is the root of your problem. JUST WHERE?

rocmoc n AZ/Baja

[Kinarfi]

Just trying to figure out how to manipulate threads and posts, so I merged starting problem threads. Hope nobody minds.

kinarfi

[Kinarfi]

Not sure if this is the correct place for this info, but since I'm trying to get easy starting and checking various items, and that's how I came by this info, here's where I'll put it.

pulled the engine coolant temperature elemement and did some testing / measuring.

Room temp 76f a to c measures 1994 ohms

32 f 5500 ohms

boiling at 204f 207.3 ohms

200f - 220 ohms

180f - 300

175f - 325

160f - 416

125f - 800

pin a goes to ECU # 31, pin c goes to ECU # 73, pin b goes to ground.

On my sensor, a to c was as above and b had no connection, maybe it is like a shield wire. Maybe it's where my problem lies. More testing.

Kinarfi

FYI F-32divided by 1.8 = C

[Guest Lenny]

Good work Jeff. Maybe you can get your hands on another one or maybe the temp sensor in the radiator is the same and you can compare the two. Then you can offer a kit for testing the sensor(s).

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

Not sure if this is the correct place for this info, but since I'm trying to get easy starting and checking various items, and that's how I came by this info, here's where I'll put it.

pulled the engine coolant temperature elemement and did some testing / measuring.

Room temp 76f a to c measures 1994 ohms

32 f 5500 ohms

boiling at 204f 207.3 ohms

200f - 220 ohms

180f - 300

175f - 325

160f - 416

125f - 800

pin a goes to ECU # 31, pin c goes to ECU # 73, pin b goes to ground.

On my sensor, a to c was as above and b had no connection, maybe it is like a shield wire. Maybe it's where my problem lies. More testing.

Kinarfi

FYI F-32divided by 1.8 = C

ERROR ERROR --- The b pin has resistance to ground, but I missed it and didn't test it, but at room temperature, it was 5000+ ohms and since I had reinstalled it when I found this error, I didn't pull it retest it. I assume the ECU looks at A to C and B to ground.

After I put it back together, it started on the first try and rev'd up, turns out I had my manual throttle engaged, so I shut down & tried again, same old crap, then I unplugged the sensor and it started, not easily, but it started. Try again tomorrow.

kinarfi

[Kinarfi]

In another thread I mentioned that I might try spinning the starter with 24 volt to get it to spin faster, IT WORKS, lit right up, now to try it when its even colder, not in my garage. Warning, the alternator power comes from the alternator to the starter to the battery disconnect. I had to rewire a few things, I added about of foot of wire to the battery disconnect and hooked that to the alternator lead and to the extremely long starter lead and rerouted the starter lead up high and accessible so I can cut it and put ends on it for easy jumping up 24 v when I need to. I plan to have a knife switch that I can be opened and then hook up jumper leads to each side of the knife switch.

Crazy I know, but it keeps me running.

Kinarfi

[Kinarfi]

In another thread I mentioned that I might try spinning the starter with 24 volt to get it to spin faster, IT WORKS, lit right up, now to try it when its even colder, not in my garage. Warning, the alternator power comes from the alternator to the starter to the battery disconnect. I had to rewire a few things, I added about of foot of wire to the battery disconnect and hooked that to the alternator lead and to the extremely long starter lead and rerouted the starter lead up high and accessible so I can cut it and put ends on it for easy jumping up 24 v when I need to. I plan to have a knife switch that I can be opened and then hook up jumper leads to each side of the knife switch.

Crazy I know, but it keeps me running.

Kinarfi

I made my own set up that allowed me to open the wire to the starter (knife switch was over $41) and tried it again today, it failed to start, ended up pulling it to get it started. Bummer.

Kinarfi

[Kinarfi]

I have been checking my MAP/IAT (manifold air pressure / intake air temperatue) and I think it's still good, I applied 5VDC to it and the MAP output was 3.655 volts. I'm hoping someone knows if this about what I should expect, if I add to the air pressure using lung power, it would rise over 4.00 volt out and if I subtracted from the air pressure using lung power, it would fall to below 3.00 volts. The IAT output was 1.809 K ohms at about 84 F, in cold water, it rose to 3.46K ohms and in warm water, it fell to 1.060K ohms.

The information for testing is on page 99 of the T2-T4 owners manual. I also traced pin 70, blue wire, Mal-Function Indicating Lamp output wire and found that it dies at one of the plugs near the computer. I have brought it out and plan to hook a lamp (LED) to it tomorrow.

I've had a cutout problem on my Trooper so have been checking the wires. I'll post that in another thread. In the mean time I found something that I didn't like with the computer. Since Farmington, my computer didn't heve ground unless I ran a seperate wire from the computer chassis to ground. Then everything worked ok. Yesterday I opened up the computer to see if I could find anything of a grounding problem. Didn't find anything except it had a bit of dust in it. The computer isn't sealed at all and water and dust can get to the inside. I sujest that everyone pull their computer and silicone all the way around the cover and plug receptical. Mine did show the signs of a bit of water too having got to the inside at some point from washing it.

Lenny

After reading Lenny's post, I opened my computer up and found some water traces and dust also, I have seen what water, copper traces and electrical energy, especially DC can do to printed circuits, disastrous, So I applied silicon all the way around the computer filling any openings that would allow moisture in. I have always had mine wrapped or inside a bag of some kind and I still got water inside. I highly recommend opening, inspecting, cleaning if needed and siliconing the outside of your computer, especially if you are not in a dry climate or wash it from time to time. I have some photos of what I saw, but the camera is in the garage and I'm tired. I'll add them tomorrow, good night.

Kinarfi

[Kinarfi]

I have been checking my MAP/IAT (manifold air pressure / intake air temperatue) and I think it's still good, I applied 5VDC to it and the MAP output was 3.655 volts. I'm hoping someone knows if this about what I should expect, if I add to the air pressure using lung power, it would rise over 4.00 volt out and if I subtracted from the air pressure using lung power, it would fall to below 3.00 volts. The IAT output was 1.809 K ohms at about 84 F, in cold water, it rose to 3.46K ohms and in warm water, it fell to 1.060K ohms.

The information for testing is on page 99 of the T2-T4 owners manual. I also traced pin 70, blue wire, Mal-Function Indicating Lamp output wire and found that it dies at one of the plugs near the computer. I have brought it out and plan to hook a lamp (LED) to it tomorrow.

After reading Lenny's post, I opened my computer up and found some water traces and dust also, I have seen what water, copper traces and electrical energy, especially DC can do to printed circuits, disastrous, So I applied silicon all the way around the computer filling any openings that would allow moisture in. I have always had mine wrapped or inside a bag of some kind and I still got water inside. I highly recommend opening, inspecting, cleaning if needed and siliconing the outside of your computer, especially if you are not in a dry climate or wash it from time to time. I have some photos of what I saw, but the camera is in the garage and I'm tired. I'll add them tomorrow, good night.

Kinarfi

got the photos downloaded and on webshots, heres the 1st of ten

Kinarfi

[Kinarfi]

In another thread I mentioned that I might try spinning the starter with 24 volt to get it to spin faster, IT WORKS, lit right up, now to try it when its even colder, not in my garage. Warning, the alternator power comes from the alternator to the starter to the battery disconnect. I had to rewire a few things, I added about of foot of wire to the battery disconnect and hooked that to the alternator lead and to the extremely long starter lead and rerouted the starter lead up high and accessible so I can cut it and put ends on it for easy jumping up 24 v when I need to. I plan to have a knife switch that I can be opened and then hook up jumper leads to each side of the knife switch.

Crazy I know, but it keeps me running.

Kinarfi

Tried it again and this time it worked, but I had to floor it to get it to start, but at least it started, I've been trying to get it to start using the first part of the throttle, but when I pull it or coast it, I end up floor boarded so I should probably start just flooring it and see if that works. When I try to start with minimal throttle, I ofter notice the smell unburnt gas. I did get my malfunction light hooked up and once the engine is running, it goes out, tried unhooking a few sensors and the light came on.

Kinarfi