Front Ball Joints need checking

[Guest Lenny]

I'm not trying to trample flatbeds post about the front ball joints being able to pull out. I just couldn't find his post to reply there. Sorry flatbed. Flatbed found that the bolts holding the ball joints in place weren't close enough to the ball joint stem to fit into it's groove, thus the ball joint could work it's way out. This happened to flatbed and Kinarfi. It could be very dangerous if this happened at the wrong time. I finally got around to checking mine today. The top of the ball joint on the front left had already pulled out 1/8". The bottom one was still ok. I did as flatbed sujested and drilled them out and refitted them with new bolts. Both joints on the right side did not need any work as they were secured ok by the original bolts. To reiterate what flatbed said, be sure to address this potential failure. Just redo them and don't wait for signs of them pulling out.

Lenny

[flatbed]

said very well, i was lucky it happened when it did, there have been other post on here about it but i ASUMED if the bolt was tight it could not come out, false they will come out, the bolt holding that ball joint in was very tight.

Kinarfi agrees, I had it happen also and everything was still tight.

[rocmoc]

OK Flatbed & Lenny, advise! I looked at mine. One is slouched down on the rubber. The other three have a 1/8" gap between the rubber & the A-arm. Good, Bad or Ugly? The bolt you replaced is the smaller bolt holding the ball joint in the A-arm? Doesn't have a notch?

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[Guest Lenny]

OK Flatbed & Lenny, advise! I looked at mine. One is slouched down on the rubber. The other three have a 1/8" gap between the rubber & the A-arm. Good, Bad or Ugly? The bolt you replaced is the smaller bolt holding the ball joint in the A-arm? Doesn't have a notch?

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

The A-arm is connected to the spindel/axel-end assembly, that you bolt the wheel to, by 2 ball joints. The ball of each ball joint has a stud that goes into a hole on the spindel assembly. The top one goes down into the assembly and the bottom one goes up into the assembly. The hole that they go into has a slot on the side opposite the wheel, so that when the visible bolt you see is tightened, it squeezes the hole around the the stud of the ball. This stud has a 1/4 moon shaped groove cut around it. Sort of like a groove that you would put an o-ring into except this groove is about 3/16" radius. When the bolt goes through, it slides past the ball stem close enough so that if it weren't for the groove, the bolt wouldn't go in. Thus when the bolt is in, the ball stem is held from comming out unless you first remove the bolt. On the Troopers in some cases, the hole for the bolt is too far away from the ball stem for it to go through it's groove, thus the ball and it's stem can slide out. To correct the problem, you have to remove the ball stem from the hole. You can do this without disconnecting the ball itself from the A-arm. I did mine by first doing the top, fixed it, put it basck together then did the bottom. Once the ball stem is out, you will see the groove were talking about and it will all make sence. I drilled the first part of the hole up to the slot 1/2" then drilled the second half to 29/64" then tapped it 1/2-20. I would have used 7/16" bolts but I had the 1/2s. I used grade 8 bolts so I could go real tight. Then I locked it in place using a 1/2-20 nut. The slot in the stem in my case needed to be ground out just a little as the 1/2" now actually hit the stem. This may or may not be necessary and if so, its only required at one spot on the stem. Just be sure to turn that spot to line up with the hole prior to inserting the bolt. Before doing any drilling, first move the stem up about 3/16" in it's hole. By looking at it carefully, you can tell if it is already interfering with the bolt hole. If so you are ok and changes are not necessary. I found that I could not tell if the fix was needed unless I lifted the stem to really what I had.

Keep in mind that you first want to get the bolt tight, then you want to get it dam tight. If you break it, you got it too dam tight.

Forget about the rubber and spacing around it. You must pull the bolt and visually check if the stem slot is doing it's job.

If this completely confused you, let me know and I'll do a sketch and post it.

Lenny

[rocmoc]

Sketch & pics would make it even clearer.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[Kinarfi]

Here's the bolt that came out of mine, notice the damaged threads, that's where the stud on the ball joint hit and was supposed to be kept from falling out, I figure solid shank instead of threads would hold it. I replaced it with a longer shanked bolt and the next grade up and put a nut on to lock it in place.

[flatbed]

If there is one thing you do on your trooper it is doing what jim and lenny are suggesting on the fron-end. DO NOT TRUST THOSE BOLTS IF THEY ARE TIGHT. They need to lock the ball joints into the arm so they can not fall out even if they are loose.

[Guest Lenny]

A couple of drawings that may help.

Lenny

[rocmoc]

OK, so you are saying replace/check the bolt & nut that hold the ball joint to the upper & lower A-arms. And is horizontal passing thru the A-arm. I have never had a problem with that bolt on any of my past toys so I was looking of something else.

Thanks, I think I got it!

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[Kinarfi]

At the very minimum, replace with longer shanked bolt, I suggest the higher grade, and put a nut on the back side. Even when tight, it seems that the ball joint can work it's way out and the interface of just the threads of the medium grade stock bolt is not strong enough to hold it. What I read from Lenny's or Flatbed's suggestion was to drill the hole bigger so you have more bolt interfacing with the ball joint stud.

Jeff

This bolt

PS While your at it, Pack some grease under the boot

[Guest Lenny]

PS While your at it, Pack some grease under the boot

I took the hex cap off the ball socket that screws into it to hold the ball in. To do this you have to cut the spot welds. I then drilled and taped the caps to receive greese fittings. Reassembled and respot welded. Now I can greese them on a regular basis.

Lenny

[STIHLMAN]

Joyner should be paying Lenny and Flatbed for their information/tech. help.I can tell they know what they are talking about!!!!!!!.Keep up the good work. We are waiting on Joyner salesman to come by so we can let him know about these problems that I have read about on this site. They want us to become a dealer for them and I have read too much unless they are ontop of these problems.........warranty,liability,comebacks to high.

[flatbed]

The Trooper has had its problems, the drive line issue was probably the biggest. Joyner has fixed that. As far as saftey the trooper is very stable, It is very hard to roll or get to go over backwards. The ball joint issue is something to be concerend about, i do not know if they have corrected that problem or not, but is something that can be fixed fairlly easy. I have been around most other UTV"s and seen the problems they have, they don"t have the ball joint problem, but i have seen the whole a-arm get ripped off. If i were to go buy another UTV again i would still buy the Trooper, It does what i need it to do, and i ask more than i should from it.

[STIHLMAN]

Thanks for the infor Flatbed

[Kinarfi]

When I got my Trooper, I sent some photos of the rubber on the ball joints to Joyner and they sent me 4 new ball joints and 2 tie rod ends, one of lower ball joint had fallen out so I replaced the lower ball joints. While working on the steering, I noticed one of the upper ball joints was coming in screwed. Each ball joint has 3 major parts, the ball which is attached to the spindle, the mount which is attached to the A arm, and a cap which is screwed down over the ball, into the mount and tack welded so it doesn't come unscrewed. The weight of the buggy is all borne by the cap in the upper ball joint. The lower ball joint just bears the weight of the lower A arm. This makes the upper ball joint very important and it needs to be watched closely.

My upper ball joint cap has broken the tack welds and unscrewed about 3/16 inch, so I have cut the tack welds on the last 2 spare ball joints, unscrewed the caps and drilled and tapped them for Zerk fittings, reassembled, very good tack weld cap to mount, pumped grease through the Zerk, packed grease under the rubber boot, cleaned, and now I'm ready to replace the upper ball joints.

If I have mistakes in my statement, please correct me.

Kinarfi

[Guest Lenny]

Kinarfi, I found that when you try to pump greese into the top ball joints, It doesn't want to go in very easy. With the ball pushing up into the cap, it cuts off the greese inlet like a valve. If you lift the mount socket up by prying up on the mount while down on the spindal assembly, this will help as it creates little clearance. I found that even when you tighten the caps all the way, there is still some play in the joint. Next time I have mine apart or replaced, if this condition still exist, I'll use a die grinder to cut some grooves in the ball or socket for greese to pass.

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

I ran into the same problem, when I pump grease in, it comes out the top from coming out through the threads. I think that the pressure of the grease going in pushes the ball down and it seals against the mount. After I reassembled mine, I pumped grease in as best I could and packed more grease around the ball under the rubber. I did notice the wear on the cap seemed to be in the area around the outer edge, so I anticipate that as it wears, it will create some room for the grease between the ball and the cap.

I considered putting some polishing compound on ball and spinning it a drill, holding the cap against it to remove the machine marks, but decided that would be excessive. Any way, I know it is well lubed and that the cap won't unthread ever again.

jeff

[Guest Lenny]

I think that the pressure of the grease going in pushes the ball down and it seals against the mount.

jeff

I agree.

Lenny

[BeeZee62]

Hi folks ... I'm brand new here today and must state that the information I've found thus far has been invaluable. Two days ago my left front lower spindle dropped out .. thankfully I wasn't going fast and managed to prevent any substantial damage. Thanks to the information here I was able to provide the fix to my local dealer - who's really not all that up on Joyner products seeing as I have the only unit they've sold.

Nevertheless, I'm still happy with my Trooper - particularly when I can go virtually anywhere even in the snow.

[Kinarfi]

Even after replacing the the original bolts with higher grade bolts and making sure they were good and tight, I had the left lower ball joint fall out again while driving hard down by Moab, I was lucky that the tire folded in and kept everything up out of the dirt, just scarred the inside of the rim. I got it back in and continued on and had a good time anyway. I don't expect to have the same problem again after this fix. I drilled the hole bigger in 1/64 steps to 29/64 and the threaded it from the back side, put a bolt in the back side to keep the drill from going in too far and continued drilling from the front side up to 1/2" and put the bolt in with a nylock nut on the back side and torque it all up to 90 lbs.

Kinarfi

[Guest Lenny]

Even after replacing the the original bolts with higher grade bolts and making sure they were good and tight, I had the left lower ball joint fall out again while driving hard down by Moab, I was lucky that the tire folded in and kept everything up out of the dirt, just scarred the inside of the rim. I got it back in and continued on and had a good time anyway. I don't expect to have the same problem again after this fix. I drilled the hole bigger in 1/64 steps to 29/64 and the threaded it from the back side, put a bolt in the back side to keep the drill from going in too far and continued drilling from the front side up to 1/2" and put the bolt in with a nylock nut on the back side and torque it all up to 90 lbs.

Kinarfi

The bigger bolt is large enough to actually go through the quarter moon cutout in the balls shank holding it from sliding out even if the bolt gets loose. On mine, the stock bolts completely missed the quarter moon cut out so if they got loose, the ball could just fall out. I now use the 1/2" grade 8 bolts and no problems since.

Lenny

[Zorro]

The bigger bolt is large enough to actually go through the quarter moon cutout in the balls shank holding it from sliding out even if the bolt gets loose. On mine, the stock bolts completely missed the quarter moon cut out so if they got loose, the ball could just fall out. I now use the 1/2" grade 8 bolts and no problems since.

Lenny

Hi Lenny, I was changing tires today and noticed when I jacked up the front the left upper ball joint slide out aleast half way.

Bolt was tight so it looks like I need to do the same as you. Question, are you doing the drilling with everything in place or do I have to remove the whole hub assembly and do it in a drill press?

Thanks

[Zorro]

Wow, I just pulled my upper bolt and now I see exactly what you are talking about.

First off I found my bolt threads were totally gone and I was not even using that much pressure to remove it, I don’t know how it even felt tight unless previous owners used a whole bottle of high temp lock tight on it. There is no part of that stock bolt that comes close to intersecting the half moon of the ball joint shaft. No wonder they just fall out.

It just seems stupid for a manufacture to put it together that way. Soon as I turned the bolt the ball joint fell out, and I've been driving this thing 60 mph down our roads with my kids in oncoming traffic. This could have killed us when I do my fifth gear wheelies! I have read you’re posts to check these ball joints but I had only made sure the bolts were tight, there needs to be a special “Warring Bulletin” on this subject.

I need all new ball joints , tie-rod ends, and hime joints does anyone have these????

[Guest Lenny]

Wow, I just pulled my upper bolt and now I see exactly what you are talking about.

First off I found my bolt threads were totally gone and I was not even using that much pressure to remove it, I don’t know how it even felt tight unless previous owners used a whole bottle of high temp lock tight on it. There is no part of that stock bolt that comes close to intersecting the half moon of the ball joint shaft. No wonder they just fall out.

It just seems stupid for a manufacture to put it together that way. Soon as I turned the bolt the ball joint fell out, and I've been driving this thing 60 mph down our roads with my kids in oncoming traffic. This could have killed us when I do my fifth gear wheelies! I have read you’re posts to check these ball joints but I had only made sure the bolts were tight, there needs to be a special “Warring Bulletin” on this subject.

I need all new ball joints , tie-rod ends, and hime joints does anyone have these????

I've replaced all my bal joints with good automotive ones with greese fittings and good boots. No slop anymore. I'll be posting what I did shortly. Tie rod end joints are fairly easy but doing the spindle assembly ball joints Is much more involved and requires a lathe and mill. I may do some checking to see if I can get closer ball joints I can purchase and modify to offer for sale. Pretty busy right now though. When I did mine, I went to NAPA, Auto Zone and Checkers and went through each box they had one by one looking for a fit. Called Fereral Mogal and they said they have no spec book loisted by size, everything is special designed for each vehicle. If yougive him a part number he can give dimensions but otherwise not.

Lenny

[Zorro]

I've replaced all my bal joints with good automotive ones with greese fittings and good boots. No slop anymore. I'll be posting what I did shortly. Tie rod end joints are fairly easy but doing the spindle assembly ball joints Is much more involved and requires a lathe and mill. I may do some checking to see if I can get closer ball joints I can purchase and modify to offer for sale. Pretty busy right now though. When I did mine, I went to NAPA, Auto Zone and Checkers and went through each box they had one by one looking for a fit. Called Fereral Mogal and they said they have no spec book loisted by size, everything is special designed for each vehicle. If yougive him a part number he can give dimensions but otherwise not.

Lenny

When you drill these out are you doing it on a press or as it is mounted??

[Guest Lenny]

When you drill these out are you doing it on a press or as it is mounted??

You can do it while it is mounted. Something I didn't do but you may want to look at is to clamp the area the bolt holds together with a pair of vise grips when drilling. Otherwise the shank of the ball wants to spin a little. I drilled it for a 1/2-20 grade 8 bolt but first I drilled it at, I beleive, 7/16" to o be able to tap the hole for the 1/2-20 bolt. Before tapping, I drilled part way through with a 1/2" drill going in just enough to include the first half of the clamping area and also the ball shank. Then tap what is left. On assembly, after installing the bolt good and tight, put a locking nut on the back side to further secure it from ever coming loose. You will have to check this locking nut for clearance when steering is fully turned each way and the suspension is all the way at the top and also at the bottom. You will need to remove the shock to check this. I ground the nut off on one side where it was hitting without going so far that I couldn't still get a good hold of it with a box wrench.

PS; after you clamp the ball shank in, make sure that it is tight in place. If not you will need to widen the slot so things can clamp in farther.

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

When you drill these out are you doing it on a press or as it is mounted??

I did mine with a hand drill, don't jack it up, keep the weight on joint so it is seated, I later found out I had to cut the the bolt off just past the nut. You'll want to go back and read my back posts on this about the length of the bolt.

Kinarfi

[Zorro]

I've replaced all my bal joints with good automotive ones with greese fittings and good boots. No slop anymore. I'll be posting what I did shortly. Tie rod end joints are fairly easy but doing the spindle assembly ball joints Is much more involved and requires a lathe and mill. I may do some checking to see if I can get closer ball joints I can purchase and modify to offer for sale. Pretty busy right now though. When I did mine, I went to NAPA, Auto Zone and Checkers and went through each box they had one by one looking for a fit. Called Fereral Mogal and they said they have no spec book loisted by size, everything is special designed for each vehicle. If yougive him a part number he can give dimensions but otherwise not.

Lenny

Lenny, can you hook me up with some ball joints???

[Guest Lenny]

Lenny, can you hook me up with some ball joints???

I'll be posting what ball joints to get for the ends of the tie rods and how to make a few easy changes to make them work. It's a much better joint that comes from NAPA. The other 4 ball joints on the A-frames ends are much more involving. They take about a day to do once you have them, modify them substantually and install them. It also requires a milling machine and a lathe. When I get a chance I'm going to look for a simpler aproach. Something that doesn't require so much special machining. On these ball joints, I had to start with what joints I could find that were as close as I could find. From there I dismantled them, welded and machined the tapered ball shank to end up with a straight shank, cut a quarter moon slot across the shank, machine the inside of the ball housing and make new spherical top and bottom bearings to carry the ball, machine the OD of the ball housing to fit the A-frames hole, add a snapring groove and greese fittings. They are real nice when finished but take an awful lot of labor.

Lenny

[plumber]

Lenny If you do make the tie rod ends and ball joints for sale I'll take four ball joints and two tie rod ends