What do you do when

[Travis]

I replaced  the flywheel in 2018 when i rebuilt it, so it only has about 300 hours on it.

 

[Travis]

Okay, the starter has very minimal play, i put it in the vice,  and set up my dial indicator, zero'd it, and at max it has 2  1/2 Thousandths side to side.

 

[Travis]

 I found this video online, basically what mine is doing, several people in the comments said they had the same problem, and 1 person said it was a bad connection, others also said a bad cable. Or High resistance in the starter circuit.

https://youtu.be/rXorKGg2TbA

 

[T-boss 410]

So you are back to replacing the cables?

[Travis]

1 hour ago, T-boss 410 said:

So you are back to replacing the cables?

It's definitely worth a try. If it works, it's a $9 fix, if not, oh well.

[Dan B]

From one of your postings, I suspect you have a bad solenoid or the actuator is binding due to worn parts.  Are the brushes good?  Some starters use centrifugal force of spinning to throw the gear into the flywheel and a spring retract is after the engine starts.  Others use a fork to shove the gear into the flywheel when the solenoid energizes.  The solenoid also has relay contacts to connect battery power directly to the starter windings though the brushes.  I had trouble with my riding lawn mower.  It would start sometimes, most times not when I tapped the solenoid with a hamer.  Brushes were worn.

[Travis]

25 minutes ago, Dan B said:

From one of your postings, you have a bad solenoid or the actuator is binding due to worn parts.  Are the brushes good?  Some starters use centrifugal force of spinning to throw the gear into the flywheel and a spring retract is after the engine starts.  Others use a fork to shove the gear into the flywheel when the solenoid energizes.  The solenoid also has relay contacts to connect battery power directly to the starter windings though the brushes.  I had trouble with my riding lawn mower.  It would start sometimes, most times not when I tapped the solenoid with a hamer.  Brushes were worn.

it's got a brand new solenoid i put on last night, i  inspected it all last night, brushes were good.

 

[Travis]

well apparently that version amp meter i bought only comes in AC now, not DC. so amazon recommended this one to me, supposed to be here tomorrow, 600A ac/dc

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B089CKQ3QX/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Dan B]

1 hour ago, Travis said:

it's got a brand new solenoid i put on last night, i  inspected it all last night, brushes were good.

 

Okay.

[Travis]

37 minutes ago, Dan B said:

Okay.

it never hurts to check though.... sometimes i miss the obvious

[kenfain]

2 hours ago, Travis said:

well apparently that version amp meter i bought only comes in AC now, not DC. so amazon recommended this one to me, supposed to be here tomorrow, 600A ac/dc

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B089CKQ3QX/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You really need one that measures as little as 3 amp IIRC.

Looks like the one you linked starts at 60amp. There's no way your starter pulls anywhere near enough amps to give a reading. 

[Travis]

1 hour ago, kenfain said:

You really need one that measures as little as 3 amp IIRC.

Looks like the one you linked starts at 60amp. There's no way your starter pulls anywhere near enough amps to give a reading. 

 Oh wow. Didn't think starters pulled that little of amperage. Seemed like most focused on the Max amperage not the minimum

[Travis]

I did some googling and reading and most small engines in this HP range starters, No load draw average of 40amps and 180 max underload. 

I'll try to get a hold of arrowhead and see what they spec for this starter.

[T-boss 410]

Nothing on the paperwork that was included with the starter that gives you any useful info?

[Travis]

1 hour ago, T-boss 410 said:

Nothing on the paperwork that was included with the starter that gives you any useful info?

Only the QC pass paper which i am kicking my self in the a$$ for throwing away.......

[kenfain]

2 hours ago, Travis said:

 Oh wow. Didn't think starters pulled that little of amperage. Seemed like most focused on the Max amperage not the minimum

They don't. Sorry, but as I said, I have no idea exactly how much it should be. But on my Honda civic, it seems like it wasn't a lot. I don't think a healthy mule starter would pull 60 amps though. That was my point about it might be too low for 60a. tester. 

But the 3amp, is more about it being useful for automotive needs. And there's not really any trade off on the higher end, for use around the house. So there's no reason not to. As long as it's one of these same knockoff Chinese junk. It'll be affordable. That capability in a major brand would be plenty  expensive. 

[Dan B]

Amp draw for starter motors.  The solenoid will draw a few amps in the neighborhod of 5 amps.  You can figure how much current it will draw by measuring resistance of the solenoid coil.  Divide that resistance reading into 12.  That will be the maximum possible amp draw of the coil if it's good.  It has to draw enough amps to create a strong magnetic field to draw in the solenoid.  Larger car engines will have solenoid current requirement 10+ amps up to 20 amps.

But the motor itself will draw 100-200 amps under load when starting the engine depending upon the number of cylinders the starter has to pull through the compresson strokes.  Most people don't have DC ammeters that can measure that high.

[Travis]

Alright here are the findings.

The starter draw was at 66-67 amps. I then hooked it up to my riding mower which also has 9.5hp Kawasaki FC290, and the starter is fairly old on that one, and it drew about 75 amps

Now back to the mule, the highest amperage i saw was 74 right when i started it and it drops and levels out and stays at 66 or 67 amps.

one thing i noticed, whenever the starter clicked, it would show 1 .08 amps on the meter. and every time it clicked (me turning the key to start) it stayed around 1.08 ,1.05 amps... now seeing as the meter supposedly reads from 60A up, im not sure if the 1 amp reading is a valid measurement.

this is measuring on the + cable about 5 inches from the end of the cable

 

[kenfain]

I'd have to say that the starter  amp draw seems normal enough. Sounds like it's not getting enough amps, when it doesn't start though. The solenoid has been changed, so there's really not much left. 

After you replace those cables, if the problem persists. You might want to take a look at that switch, and any relays that might be there. 

[Travis]

32 minutes ago, kenfain said:

I'd have to say that the starter  amp draw seems normal enough. Sounds like it's not getting enough amps, when it doesn't start though. The solenoid has been changed, so there's really not much left. 

After you replace those cables, if the problem persists. You might want to take a look at that switch, and any relays that might be there. 

Sounds like a good plan.

[Mackc]

On 1/28/2021 at 4:02 PM, Travis said:

36 days of no faults, i started it up to go feed,  killed it, loaded the feed, started right up, drove for a little bit, killed it to pour out the feed, started right up, go back to the barn, close all gates and what not, back to the mule,  Click, Click, Click, with no sign of starting.

luckily being young enough to have some stretch in my muscles, i was able to jump the starter posts, while holding the key in start and she fired up.

 drove back to the house, killed  it, and started without problem, like normal....

 Now, i have plan, if it keeps on doing this and it was not just a one time deal, all i need to do is remove the flywheel housing. that will give me a perfect view of the flywheel and starter gear, so i can see what they're doing when it just clicks, if it's jamming against the flywheel or not....

i hope it was just this one time....

 

Is this with the old solenoid?  I

[Travis]

2 hours ago, Mackc said:

Is this with the old solenoid?  I

Its with the New solenoid that came with the new starter, and i've swapped solenoids with known good ones. still does the same thing, like i doesnt have enough power to turn the gear to mesh with the flywheel. still waiting on a new + cable.

 funny thing, i haven't had an issue starting it in 3 days.

[g benjamin]

Travis, this has happened to me and I chased the issue for a week before I discovered the problem to be the positive terminal bolt on the starter. when tightening the nut to hold the cable the bolt can get turned and lose a bit of its contact .  the bolt has a head on it shaped like a rectangle and it engages a similarly shaped area inside the solenoid.   When you try to start it and all it will do is click, try this: grab the cable near the post and turn just a bit CCW. if it then starts you have discovered the issue. once the bolt head is seated properly or close to it current will pass properly and provide adequate  voltage to ignition wire.  I hope this solves the problem, please let us know if it does.  Good Luck Brother

[Travis]

There is no nut on the battery. The terminals are split in the middle and a square threaded insert is what the bolt screws to while cable end is clamped to the post.

[Travis]

my + cable is out for delivery.

funny thing, my starter (or whatever is causing the problem) has not acted up in almost a week, however if you read Joe Breaux's thread "BRRR" i said my fuel pump froze up, and at that time i was cranking it over several times checking for pulse, at the pump  and it did act up then and clicked several times after repeated short cranks... not saying its related to the pump, but cranking it over that much in that short period, i wonder if the cable isn't able to carry the load of thats being drawn repeatedly in that short time.

[Joe Breaux]

it could be corroded inside the insulation.. I had one of my Corvettes with a chronic weak starter , dove me nutz..  .. finally repaced all the cables with larger gauge cables and never had any more problems .. the Hot side was severely corroded inside the insulation 

[T-boss 410]

Delivery is getting so slow anymore. A package sent from my house to another residence 75 miles away took 3 months. Just getting stupid slow. 

[T-boss 410]

22 minutes ago, Travis said:

my + cable is out for delivery.

funny thing, my starter (or whatever is causing the problem) has not acted up in almost a week, however if you read Joe Breaux's thread "BRRR" i said my fuel pump froze up, and at that time i was cranking it over several times checking for pulse, at the pump  and it did act up then and clicked several times after repeated short cranks... not saying its related to the pump, but cranking it over that much in that short period, i wonder if the cable isn't able to carry the load of thats being drawn repeatedly in that short time.

I wonder if you could get a  better start with a larger battery cable, like Joe said. 

[Joe Breaux]

12 minutes ago, T-boss 410 said:

Delivery is getting so slow anymore. A package sent from my house to another residence 75 miles away took 3 months. Just getting stupid slow. 

lol  I sent a package to my wifes cousin in Baton Rouge once.. It had to go to Atlanta, then Tennessee before going to Baton Rouge.. which is only 60 miles from me .. go figure

[Travis]

25 minutes ago, Joe Breaux said:

it could be corroded inside the insulation.. I had one of my Corvettes with a chronic weak starter , dove me nutz..  .. finally repaced all the cables with larger gauge cables and never had any more problems .. the Hot side was severely corroded inside the insulation 

New cable just got delivered. Looks better than the original one. It's sleeting right now so ill put it on tomorrow. Another Plus on the part number tag it says Made In USA 🇺🇸